GoodSoundClub - Romy the Cat's Audio Site - Agile Room Acoustic Treatment?

05-31-2012

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,051
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #:	341
Post ID:	18227
Reply to:	18225

An environmental aspect of noise.

oxric wrote:
Your listening room probably needs to be heard to be fully appreciated but I am sure that in terms of ambient noise, good as it is, it could be better. You have these large doors opening on the outside and I have a feeling your house was built using usual american materials. I would hasard a guess that your room is fairly exposed to environmental noises of all sorts. Far from me be it to criticise, and i suffer even more of this problem as mu current listening room in France is at the front of the house leading directly onto the road, albeit that the walls are stone and about 80cm thick or so. It is just part and parcel of most listening rooms nowadays that they are not truly 'silent'. On the other hand, the solution pursued by this japanese audiophile is just too extreme to my taste and I would like the soundproofing of having solid earth around the main perimeter of the room but with an open part leading to a view over the surrounding countryside...and use properly specified sound proof glass, which would have to be triple glazed and built to 'PassivHaus' standards in any case.

The subject of noise and listening room enrolment is very interesting one. Of course we all want our listening rooms to be as quite as possible. I am not even taking about airplanes, cars, lawnmowers, dogs or the annoying kinds shot basketball, but also about refrigerators, wine coolers, regenerators, air conditioners, fans, dishwasher of the sounds of own family members. The question is - where to stop? One would run away from city to escape the emergency vehicle sirens and boom of the idling tracks and face the suburban noise of landscaping crews and scream of very annoying birds.

It is thru that in US today houses built from shit and from sound isolation perspective they are not even close to the older European masonry contraction. Still, I think the sound isolation is NOT the key. The solid masonry contraction has different sound itself and I think that this is more important than the isolation factor. I do not insist that solid masonry contraction is always better but it for sure sounds different then the cardboard walls…

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

05-31-2012

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,051
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #:	342
Post ID:	18228
Reply to:	18226

The only the sweetspot seat?

Jorge wrote:
Monoplatz with only the sweetspot seat.

The subject of the single listening chair is complicated one. The Macondo topology does imply a single and very narrow listening sweet spot and there is nothing the one can do with it. You can put a multi-sit couch in the sweet spot and only one person would have proper listening arrangement. My current (in context of listening rooms) girlfriend is mildly lobbying me to put a large couch in the mid of my listening room in order us to be able to listen music together. She has point as she is in my view is a truly jewel to listen music together. I can’t explain to her (I can explain and demonstrate to her but I never did try it so far) that the need of Macondo’s chenals time-alignment does not permit to have lateral latitude at sweet spot. Since human ears are located on right/left side of the human head and humans naturally have very limited ability for vertical sound-source localization we are practicing vertical sweet spot positioning. It is a bit “destructive” as listening together is not only pleasant part that she is good for but sitting atop each other unfortunately/fortunately the only listening configuration that complies with Macondo topology.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

05-31-2012

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Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 141
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #:	343
Post ID:	18229
Reply to:	18228

Train Positioning

I have a buch of audio friends and we get toghether weekly, we usually lounge around and share the sweetspot eventually, but when more than one wants the sweet spot putting a chair behind the sweetspot works very well, even 3 or 4 chairs lined up, one would be "near filed" and the last possibly a little too far, but still within range.
Now this is all male no touch implied, if it was my girlfriend I would probably get a sort of long lounge chair and have her sit on my lap! Now my wife dont care about soundstage, she still drops in some time and dance in front of one speaker very sessy! I love it, but I had to tell her to do it in the center so the sound stage is not damaged! ijijijiji

05-31-2012

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,051
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #:	345
Post ID:	18231
Reply to:	18229

The lap listening…

Jorge wrote:
if it was my girlfriend I would probably get a sort of long lounge chair and have her sit on my lap! Now my wife dont care about soundstage, she still drops in some time and dance in front of one speaker very sessy! I love it, but I had to tell her to do it in the center so the sound stage is not damaged!

I always was very attracted to that lap listening. The lap dancing they do is fine but it serve slightly different objectives, not that I against it but it is not what I would like to expire what I am with my Bruckner. If a right person sits on your laps and we both have true appreciation of the musical invent enfolding in front of you than it might be very sensual experience. Women are usually quite body-reactive when they are exposed to external spiritual stimulations. They get scare and shaking during stupid films in cinema. Some of them, particularly who play musical instruments, do have very inversing body reaction that inspired by music. With close contact, proper music and proper person the experience might be priceless.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

05-31-2012

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,577
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	346
Post ID:	18232
Reply to:	18230

Family Room

Rony, not to beg the issue of sound, per se, but I have lived in 4 houses that looked +/- like the one you've pictured. They were not the best with respect to rote Sound development, but they were very Family Friendly, which, in the end, has served me very well, as a "whole person".

I was well into hi-fi when I met and married my wife of 44 years, and my children grew up with "serious" installations in the house at all times. We all enjoyed together many, many hours of Music that still shine in my memories, and my children, and now my grandchildren, are all "musical" people, to this day. All the while, I tried to keep the Sound in the room "good enough" for my own, "personal" Music fixes.

What's all this worth to a family man?

Now, later in life, I am far less "social", generally speaking, and I am far, far less social with the "serious" part of my Music. However, it still brings me great Joy when my now-more-numerous family members want to "partake" of the music I play, including dancing to it; so I imagine I will always try to reserve space in my listening room for this. Sure, I could get "better sound" by attending primarily to sound, per se; but...

Best regards,
Paul S

06-03-2012

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,051
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #:	347
Post ID:	18236
Reply to:	18232

About dead-end listening rooms.

I would like to share a concept that is not widely understood or even not formulated in mind of many audio people but something the has a tremendous importance to me personaly. The readers of my site know that I do not like the concept of dedicated listening rooms but event room is made integrated with living environment than I am not always feeling friendly about those rooms.

Most of the listening rooms, consciously or not, are made as dead-end listening rooms. It means a person can enter in the room and then shall exit from the same door, so the room servers single listening purpose. I generally have tendency do not like those type of the rooms and I very much prefer if a listening room has multiple exits and the most important to be not dead-end room in dwelling but to be rather the proxy room or the room across wish activity in house get transferred across the listening room. So, basically we are taking about end of house positioning vs. middle of the house positioning. Take a look at the picture of these rooms:

They are wonderful room but there is no “activity” behind the loudspeakers or on the side of the rooms. They are obviously dedicated rooms and to be in the rooms you do not “live” there but just spend time ONLY to listen in the rooms. If the room sort of by-pass room, that way how it presented in the pictures below:

…than I do feel much more attractive to the rooms as the last rooms have feeling to be a part of environment instead of setting and forcing own environment…

Rgs, Romy the Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

06-07-2012

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,051
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #:	348
Post ID:	18252
Reply to:	18236

A super audio room.

Here is the room that I really like. It looks like a bit too small room for big music but still the “room treatment” and the room’s natural cavities are very very very good. The image is by Zagreb-based Ring Audio Company.

http://www.ring-audio.com/ring-audio-in-the-new-workshop/

The speakers they produce are kind worthless but the demo room they have is truly pronominal.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

06-07-2012

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,577
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	349
Post ID:	18253
Reply to:	18252

Time Warp!

The photo blasted me instantly through space/time to Il Croce Verde in Florence, where/when I shared late lunch with a gathering of mens choral groups. The space was rather larger, but the same brick barrel vaults, and it did, indeed, serve both acoustics and the Moment very well.

I have no good numbers for this type of construction, but they would not be for the faint of heart (nor the cash challenged). Even a "fake", drywall version of this would be cost prohibitive for all but the very rich, even profligate enthusiast.

Paul S

06-28-2012

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,051
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #:	350
Post ID:	18334
Reply to:	13235

A piano in a listening room

I am slowly contemplating to put a baby grand piano in my listening room. Besides all other considerations there is one that fascinates me - how the presence of a piano in listening room will affect sound acousticly. I do remember in past I had guitars in listening room and I was able clearly to hear thier location and impact. A baby grand piano will be much bigger fish. I am not saying that it will be worse or even notable but I do wonder if anyone did bring piano into existing, well-tuned rooms and can name any sonic differences besides what might be expected from a box of piano dimension.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

06-28-2012

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,577
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	351
Post ID:	18335
Reply to:	18334

Pianissimo

I have in the past had our old upright grand in the listening room. Of course it is an active element. No surprise, it seems to eat some sounds and "augment" others as it plays along with the hi-fi. For the sake of my hi-fi-spawned music, I prefer the piano elsewhere in the house, well away when possible (as now).

Best regards,
Paul S

06-28-2012

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Klausner
Posts 5
Joined on 06-23-2012

Post #:	353
Post ID:	18338
Reply to:	18336

Re: A piano in a listening room

I have an upright piano in my listening room, but I haven't seriously investigated its sonic impact, since its also my living room and its sort of always been there and I've never moved it. I don't know how much it affects the sound resonant-wise verses having a large object in the corner. Remember, the strings are damped by default and won't vibrate unless the pedal is down. A grand piano with an exposed soundboard might make a large impact. If you really want to get crazy, get a harp (I think its highly unlikely that you play). It's extremely resonant and all the strings vibrate freely. My girlfriend is a harpist, and there's a concert Lyon & Healy in my bedroom...It might be sort of hilarious to stick it between my speakers.

06-28-2012

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skushino
Seattle, WA
Posts 93
Joined on 07-07-2004

Post #:	354
Post ID:	18341
Reply to:	18334

My doubts

I can empathize with your fascination on how a piano might influence the quality of playback in your home. A grand or large upright like a Steinway K52 has a resonating sound board 6 feet long or more. A Steinway Model D concert grand sound board is around 9 feet long. The size and quality of the sound board has a significant influence on the sound that uniquely identifies the instrument (what distinguishes a Steinway from a Chikering from a Bosendorfer from a Kawai). My second listening room shares space with a large upright piano (6 ft sound board) and large speakers (estimate cabinet volume around 24 cu ft). I seldom listen to loud music, but when I opened up the volume, the piano clearly resonates with the playback. It's actually very annoying and distracting. I partially solved the problem by putting a large piece of thermal insulating foam behind the piano, backed by cardboard, both covering the sound board. This helped. The problem was solved when I moved both the piano and the speakers to new locations, reducing the ringing below my hearing threshold.

From a different perspective, a piano in the listening room adds to the aesthetic quality, in my opinion. A large piano is a wonderful source of music, and seems fitting in a listening room, even if partially detrimental to the audio playback sound quality.

06-29-2012

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,051
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #:	355
Post ID:	18343
Reply to:	18341

It is exactly what I worry.

skushino wrote:
… when I opened up the volume, the piano clearly resonates with the playback.

It is exactly what I worry. When I play my Bruckner I use high volume and it pressurizes my room very high. So, I think it might pick some extra harmonics from the air. It might be useful and it might not be, most likely it will not be. So I wonder about making some kind of extra dumper that I might install in the middle of the piano’s sound board while piano is not being played.

The caT

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

06-29-2012

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,051
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #:	356
Post ID:	18344
Reply to:	13235

Agile Room Acoustic Treatment?

My girlfriend a viola player and she brought in our listening room her quarter to do some reading. I was very concerns about the acoustic quality of my listening room and I did not design for live music but rather for audio. I feel that musicians will not find my listening room to be too short in reverberation time. It is might be fine for practicing and learning but it might not be too beneficial for performing when they want to have “grandiose” room response.

The musicians played in my listening room, they did like the acoustics. I need to confess that I removed from the room all room treatment that was not attached to the walls. I personally do not feel that they were too critical as I did feel that the sound was a bit too “high resolution”, at least to my taste. Later on, when we played my audio I felt that I would like to have a bit less “live” room then it was.

All of it brings me to an interesting question: Acoustics for Music vs. Acoustics for Audio how to combine it. It would be interesting to design some kind of concept that would make room to be adjustable and by literally turn of switch the room moderate the HF reverberation time. I am thinking about it now and I do have some interesting ideas… share yours if you had those objectives and had some success stories. Ten years back there was a lot of buss in my software word about Agile Software Development, so why not to invent a concept of Agile Acoustic Treatment?

Rgs,
Romy The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

06-29-2012

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skushino
Seattle, WA
Posts 93
Joined on 07-07-2004

Post #:	357
Post ID:	18346
Reply to:	18344

Musicians at home

How fortunate to have live music performed in your home. In the few instances when I had talented pianists (not me) play at my house, all thoughts of playback and acoustics go out the window. The music by itself makes me forget about all the geeky aspects of our hobby. I have had the privilege or listening to concert pianists perform in private settings, where I was able to listen while standing next to the concert grand piano. The power and volume is amazing. The musical impact is fantastic. Maybe this is why musicians generally have little interest in doing audio, while people who do audio go to extraordinary lengths to try and recreate this experience at home.

06-30-2012

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Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 141
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #:	358
Post ID:	18348
Reply to:	18346

Piano Measurements

I have an Upright piano in my listening room, it has been there since day one, so I dont know how different my room would sound wihtout it... Maybe I will haul the piano out one day just to test it: nah...

A bunch of years back we were testing two amps in a friends system, he has an Upright piano in his listening room as well. He had a very nice version of the Jadis Defy 7 amp and was testing a Gryhon Antileon amp to see if we would buy it. We were also playing around with an RTA system and measuring the response of the SS Antileon amp, very spiky response though flat. in one of the silences a friend sort of punched the piano keys, the RTA graphs went all rounded when they had been full of spikes, we then tested the Tube amp and the graphs were rounded again. needless to say he didnt buy the SS amp.

Having listened to your system I am very interested in a comparison between live music and something similar (quartet) sounding in your playback, on the same room, you state that live was "too high resolution" and that for playback you needed a more "dead" room. Can you give us a more detailed descrption?

A close friend recorded in his room a jazz singer with electric guitar on RTR and then played it back, there was not a huge difference! Full horn system did help!

Old WE cinema systems were often used against live orchestras playing in the cinema.... Would have loved to listen to that!

07-05-2012

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,051
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #:	359
Post ID:	18363
Reply to:	18348

It has absolutely nothing to do with proper audio objectives

Jorge wrote:
Having listened to your system I am very interested in a comparison between live music and something similar (quartet) sounding in your playback, on the same room, you state that live was "too high resolution" and that for playback you needed a more "dead" room. Can you give us a more detailed descrption?

A close friend recorded in his room a jazz singer with electric guitar on RTR and then played it back, there was not a huge difference! Full horn system did help!

Old WE cinema systems were often used against live orchestras playing in the cinema.... Would have loved to listen to that!

In contrary I very much disagree that playing live music, recording it, playing it back and compare results serve any meaningful purpose. On surface it looks like right thing to do and it is what has been practicing in audio for the last 130 years. But if to gig a bit deeper then comparing live and recorded sound in the same room is the stupidest thing one can imagine in audio and it very much contradict what audio is all about.

I am not surprised however that your friend had such bad result playing back his jazz singer with electric guitar. To make it realistically more or less the same is VERY difficult to do but once again – even if you do it then it still has absolutely nothing to do with proper objectives of audio.

I am not sure what you are asking when you are asking about more detailed description. I think it is very obvious. Live string players would like to play in reverberant space where the sound of the string acoustically amplified and enriched by the reverberation. I do not have a lot of it going in my
listening room…

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

07-19-2012

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,051
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #:	360
Post ID:	18423
Reply to:	13235

The next step.

Ok, it took my listening room 2 years to be fully functioning and I have decided to take it a notch further. Next week I will be breaking one of the wall in my listening room and if the roof will not collapse as the result then I will have beautiful space to host a piano in my listening room. It will be a large 10 feet bay so it will accommodate even 9 feet grand piano but for now it 5 feet baby grand will go in there. It for sure will have some toll over the acoustic in the room and some of the things will be revised. The “organ” acoustic treatment over the midbass horns will be most probably partially gone. The wall between the bay with record and bad on the left:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Site_Images/NewRoom_ASC_1.JPG

…. will be gone and piano will be injected in there. The record will have a new location and many other changes will be performed. The Macondo, Miq’s the equipment and the room stays.

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

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