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04-30-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Meiko41
Posts 9
Joined on 07-17-2009

Post #: 521
Post ID: 13396
Reply to: 13395
PurePower Customer Service still exists ?
fiogf49gjkf0d
I am glad to hear that APS plans to reply to its customers. So I can hope myself to have some answers one day. I am waiting for only few months... ;-)
04-30-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
PurePower
Ayr, ON
Posts 44
Joined on 05-26-2009

Post #: 522
Post ID: 13397
Reply to: 13378
Maxzimum's buzz needs to be minimised.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi Max,

If you have buzzing that is audible outside the PurePower case, or audible from a listening position, the behavior is not normal. The probable source is a capacitor. Caps can hum in the same way as transformers - the foil expands and contracts and can vibrate at 60 cycles in an effect that is similar to transformer magnetostriction. You should contact us to arrange for service.
05-01-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 523
Post ID: 13398
Reply to: 13397
The nonsense of Buzzing capacitors?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 PurePower wrote:
Hi Max,

If you have buzzing that is audible outside the PurePower case, or audible from a listening position, the behavior is not normal. The probable source is a capacitor. Caps can hum in the same way as transformers - the foil expands and contracts and can vibrate at 60 cycles in an effect that is similar to transformer magnetostriction. You should contact us to arrange for service.

I am sorry but it is nonsense! I am not electronics wizard but from a very commence sense it sounds to me absurdish that a capacitor can buzz.  The whole idea of a capacitor is a sequential layering of conductor and dielectric. If the layering is not done tight then the conductors might move up to the point but it happened ONLY in failed capacitors that must not be use anyhow.  However, if a layer moves up to the point that it auditable buzzes then the capacitor is way passed the moment when it might be safely used. The point is that if a cap is so bad in quality that the layers buzz then the cap does not perfume it’s capacitive duty sand most likely will be shorted very soon. Still, I do not believe that commercially made caps, that wounded by high tension-machines would buzz.

The Cat
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-01-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
beachbum
New Orleans area
Posts 16
Joined on 02-19-2009

Post #: 524
Post ID: 13400
Reply to: 13395
PurePower thanks for the reply
fiogf49gjkf0d
Will get in touch this week and thanks for the quick response.
Mike



I Think the Volume needs to be Turned Up
05-01-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
PurePower
Ayr, ON
Posts 44
Joined on 05-26-2009

Post #: 525
Post ID: 13401
Reply to: 13398
Yes, Romy, most AC capacitors buzz.
fiogf49gjkf0d
In the world or audio you learn new and interesting facts every day.
 
AC caps (ceramic, electrolytic, polyester and polypropylene metallized foil types) can buzz at various frequencies. This is not nonsense, and is quite normal behavior; it is common sense if you stop to think about it. As the voltage switches from positive to negative in the presence of AC the film stretches and shrinks with each cycle, just as a transformer lamination stretches and shrinks. 

Transformers, coils and capacitors  are all capable of acting as little door buzzers.
 
Unfortunately cap manufacturers do not include specifications for audible noise in their technical data, so those of us using AC caps in applications where audible sound levels are critical have to test each type carefully and specify only those that meet our own QC procedures for audible noise.

Interestingly, the tendency to hum is entirely unrelated to the quality, price, or electrical specifications of the cap. So a noisy cap does not indicate a failing or low quality cap at all.
 
For many of the AC caps in PurePower units we have worked with a small custom manufacturer that has developed a unique folding configuration to reduce the tendancy to vibrate. Several of the hand wound audio grade cap manufacturers have worked very carefully to develop quiet caps through trial and error to come up with the ideal winding technique, and one California audio grade custom cap manufacturer told me it is a skill that varies from employee to employee.
 
Usually, the sound produced by noisy caps is below a level that is audible outside the component case, but occasionally they can be loud enough to be objectionable.
 
p.s. It would not surprise me at all if there were capacitors happily humming away inside some very high end audio equipment. Fortunately, the sound level is usually proportional to load, so they would only make noise when the music is loud, and catching them would be like trying to see if the fridge light goes out when you close the door.
 
05-01-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 526
Post ID: 13403
Reply to: 13401
Nonsense!
fiogf49gjkf0d

 PurePower wrote:
In the world or audio you learn new and interesting facts every day.
 
AC caps (ceramic, electrolytic, polyester and polypropylene metallized foil types) can buzz at various frequencies. This is not nonsense, and is quite normal behavior; it is common sense if you stop to think about it. As the voltage switches from positive to negative in the presence of AC the film stretches and shrinks with each cycle, just as a transformer lamination stretches and shrinks. 

Transformers, coils and capacitors  are all capable of acting as little door buzzers.
 
Unfortunately cap manufacturers do not include specifications for audible noise in their technical data, so those of us using AC caps in applications where audible sound levels are critical have to test each type carefully and specify only those that meet our own QC procedures for audible noise.

Interestingly, the tendency to hum is entirely unrelated to the quality, price, or electrical specifications of the cap. So a noisy cap does not indicate a failing or low quality cap at all.
 
For many of the AC caps in PurePower units we have worked with a small custom manufacturer that has developed a unique folding configuration to reduce the tendancy to vibrate. Several of the hand wound audio grade cap manufacturers have worked very carefully to develop quiet caps through trial and error to come up with the ideal winding technique, and one California audio grade custom cap manufacturer told me it is a skill that varies from employee to employee.
 
Usually, the sound produced by noisy caps is below a level that is audible outside the component case, but occasionally they can be loud enough to be objectionable.
 
p.s. It would not surprise me at all if there were capacitors happily humming away inside some very high end audio equipment. Fortunately, the sound level is usually proportional to load, so they would only make noise when the music is loud, and catching them would be like trying to see if the fridge light goes out when you close the door.
 

I am sorry but stating that capacitive buzz is not nonsense but “quite normal behavior” is nonsense itself. Yes, the film, conductor and dialectic perform micro-movement but if this movements rise to the level of auditable noise then there are ONLY two reasons:

1)    Circuitry is not designed properly

2)    Capacitor is not manufactured properly.

Sorry, to advocate that buzzing capo is a norm is something that you must not do. A vibrating and buzzing cathode in the tube is norm as well?  The film in capacities is the cathode and any good cap manufactures do advertise how firm and tight then wind the caps. The cap that are loose and auditable vibrate are just a defective garbage that need to be trashed. There is no reason to discuss it further.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-03-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
PurePower
Ayr, ON
Posts 44
Joined on 05-26-2009

Post #: 527
Post ID: 13408
Reply to: 13403
Romy, your point is taken
fiogf49gjkf0d

You point out that if a capacitor can hum it is faulty and wound improperly.

You are absolutely correct  - the way a capacitor is wound will determine if it can hum or not. Unfortunately almost all capacitors on the market are wound in a way that allows them to hum - even when they meet all other electrical  specs.

Therefore my statement is correct. Most capacitors can hum.

Your statement that "If a capacitor can hum, it is faulty and is wound incorrectly" is a legitimate point of view.  I agree with it as a requirement of acceptable capacitor quality. In fact, capacitors that meet the noise free quality level are the very capacitors PurePower uses.

The problem is, we had to do a whole lot of testing and visiting capacitor plants to find caps that are wound properly and meet the noise free test because the manufacturers do not publish their audible noise specification.

But if you make a general statement that all caps are silent you statement is incorrect. The reason is simple. Most caps are used in applications where hum is acceptable.  Thus most caps do not meet your standards and are not acceptable for use in audio equipment.
05-03-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 528
Post ID: 13410
Reply to: 13408
Capacitors must be silent and in context of this thread.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 PurePower wrote:

You point out that if a capacitor can hum it is faulty and wound improperly.

You are absolutely correct  - the way a capacitor is wound will determine if it can hum or not. Unfortunately almost all capacitors on the market are wound in a way that allows them to hum - even when they meet all other electrical  specs.

Therefore my statement is correct. Most capacitors can hum.

Your statement that "If a capacitor can hum, it is faulty and is wound incorrectly" is a legitimate point of view.  I agree with it as a requirement of acceptable capacitor quality. In fact, capacitors that meet the noise free quality level are the very capacitors PurePower uses.

The problem is, we had to do a whole lot of testing and visiting capacitor plants to find caps that are wound properly and meet the noise free test because the manufacturers do not publish their audible noise specification.

But if you make a general statement that all caps are silent you statement is incorrect. The reason is simple. Most caps are used in applications where hum is acceptable.  Thus most caps do not meet your standards and are not acceptable for use in audio equipment.

Yes, the capacitors are silent and in context of this thread I would insist that if "if a capacitor can hum, it is faulty and is wound incorrectly". Let me to explain.

Capacitors crate nose because of 3 reasons and 3 reasons only. If the sales people who sell your caps tell you otherwise then fire them and find another supplier.

1)    If a cap has to high ESR then drop on this ESR develops Johnson Noise. The Johnson’s is the restive noise not capacitive nose.  However, if the cap has such a huge ESR that a part of the cap begin to act as indictors then it is an absolutely garbage capacitor.  The only caps that I have seen do it were the caps from old Telefunken radio of 1930 and they had no capacitance and huge none-linearity

2)    The dialectic of a cap can exhibit the piezoelectric effect when the electrons in dialectic are exerted under AC in the film. This effect might create some  HF noise and the caps do produce some noise at the frequency they roll of AC. But in your case the caps do not have very minor HF noise but the have 60Hz buzz. (Reportedly and admiringly, as my unit has none of it). In order a cap to have piezo-effect 60Hz buzz the cap shall be huge, I mean it shall be a size of 50-100 PP2000 units combined – it will be the size of a good room.

3)    A capacitor is fatly and VERY loosely wondered. In this case if the conductors have a LOT of room and very bad quality then they might vibrate.  The 60Hz buzz is a vibration, a vibration is mass per amplitude.  Circulate the mass of the cap’s film and you know the frequency – you will have an idea how much the film is moving in the cap – it will be huge if you have 60Hz buzz. With this exertion of the file INSIDE the cap the cap is faulty and need to be replaced with another tight wounded.

I do think that 60Hz buzz did not come from capacitors but from somewhere in the unit. The shunting caps do not care about current and if you use the buzzing caps in coupling application then if a cap buzzes at 60Hz then it will burst VERY soon. So, I do not believe that 60Hz buzzing cap is being used. Sorry, I do not believe into 60Hz buzzing caps and if you have managed to fide them some s then the people who make them have a lot of “talent” to produce them. They need to stat to make dildos but not capacitors…

Rgs, Romy the caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-03-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 298
Joined on 06-02-2004

Post #: 529
Post ID: 13412
Reply to: 13408
Yes, and...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Your statement that "If a capacitor can hum, it is faulty and is wound incorrectly" is a legitimate point of view.

More of a truism I'd say.

Thanks, PP, for elucidating these parameters.

clark
05-25-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,571
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 530
Post ID: 13623
Reply to: 13412
Uncompromising Solutions
fiogf49gjkf0d
It's kinda fun every now and then to try to figure out a BEP solution on my own.  The following will illustrate why I don't do this very often...

One problem that is very hard to deal with is efficiency, in the broadest sense.  Without "hi-tech" compromises that PS, APS and other home-use companies employ, things get pretty large, heavy, inefficient and expensive, pretty fast.  Well, never mind that for now...

Alrighty- then: Since - according to users - PP2000 seems to work better off battery alone, I thought I'd start with the pure idea and then do an imaginary power supply from there.  A basic 3000 W "pure sine wave" inverter (turns battery power to 120 VAC) is about 30 lbs and runs about $1k (USD).  Batteries required to run a 1,500 W system would vary according to whether one wanted to run the thing off batteries alone or if it was OK to charge the battery while the hi-fi was playing.  If batteries alone, then figure 1,200 Ah, plus charger (about 650 lbs. and $1.5k).  Otherwise, figure about 200 Ah battery (110 lbs, $675) and 200 A alternator (ZENA, $675), which needs an 11 hp motor to drive it (Arrow continuous duty gas engine, ~$7.5k, refurbished, 450 lbs.)

I was taught to figure ~2 hp per kW to be generated, so the power required to run the alternator to keep up with the battery drain would be roughly equivalent to a motor required to run a 5.5 kW generator; but that wouldn't have the coveted "battery buffer".

If to use an 11 hp electric motor to drive the alternator that charges/keeps up with the battery/buffer, it would require on the order of 27 amps for each leg of a 230 V motor.  (This would be very heavy and very expensive.)

Engineers are welcome to tell how PS and APS get their units so small "without compromises".


Paul S
05-26-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 531
Post ID: 13624
Reply to: 13623
I do not share this sentiment.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul S wrote:
Since - according to users - PP2000 seems to work better off battery alone, …..

I do not share this sentiment. If a specific unit is not broken then it shall be no difference between working off battery vs. working from the wall. The very first PP1050 unit that I had did not have any difference between working from battery or not. My current PP2000 does have very minor, near negligible difference. However, my unit has faulty (noisy) battery charging circuitry. If it were fixed (Pure Powers keep fixing it for 2 years!!!!) then it shall not be any difference between running from battery or ruining from main. The whole point of regenerators like this is that it is irrelevant hat was before the PP2000.

Saying it, I have to admit that when I connect the PP2000 to the bad sounding part of 220V then I do have difference in sound…
 
The Cat
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-26-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,571
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 532
Post ID: 13625
Reply to: 13624
Proof of the Pudding
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes, I understand that APS' mantra is, "no differences between battery and wall power source operation". So, there is irony in the fact that so many users report improved operation when they unplug the unit from the wall, if only to finally silence the unit's "capacitor whine".  And I agree that it seems like APS acknowledges but does not ultimately remedy a host of problems reported here.

On the other hand, there is a great deal more irony in the fact that a BEP "solution" that doggedly follows "theory" winds up so far removed from reality that it staggers the imagination.  What price "better isolation" and pure sine-wave inversion?

Clearly - and this was actually the point of my post -  a portable unit that does the sound good is the way to go, if they ever figure out how to make them work to spec consistently.

Romy, it will be interesting to hear how your unit handles the new-and-"improved" local, suburban BEP over time, as you bring the system back on line.  I assume and hope that if Bill Gaw thought he had problems, then he would report them, apropos.  Likewise, if APS ever fixed Adrian's unit, then I hope he would post about that.

Best regards,
Paul S
06-03-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 112
Joined on 03-15-2010

Post #: 533
Post ID: 13687
Reply to: 13625
PP2000 report
fiogf49gjkf0d
http://enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/0610/audiolics_anonymous_chapter_128.htm
06-03-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,571
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 534
Post ID: 13688
Reply to: 13687
Success vs. Failure Rate
fiogf49gjkf0d
Thanks for the update, Bill. Good for you! It would be so great, after all these years, to finally be able to take electricity for granted...

Meanwhile, perhaps I am not the only one hanging back, watching the failure rate and APS responses from a safe distance. Can you say if the unit you've sent back for repairs was the one that earlier failed to charge its own battery, or was it the one that had the odd sine wave? Or, did one unit display both faults? Basically, I am wondering if it was one or both of the units you bought that failed to meet own specs. I'm sure APS know you are a public reviewer, so one would think they would be especially careful with your unit now.  However, I am mindful that Romy just let slip that APS have already "repaired" his current unit 4 or 5 times.

As a point of interest, I checked the APS site today, and I think I remember that their spec for unit noise is 14 dB.

Best regards,
Paul S

06-03-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 535
Post ID: 13689
Reply to: 13688
You do have a strange attitude toward Purepower.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Paul,

You do have a strange attitude toward Purepower. You, for whatever reason to put your in the position of consumer advocacy and I think it is a bit cloud your judgment. What interesting that your judgment is absolutely irrelevant for ether the people who use Purepower, or to the people who do not use it or to the Purepower itself. I think you have a wrong impression about the impressions you are getting. Let me to explain.

I do not like Bill’s review. He is not a good reviewer, in fact there are no proper reviewers in audio nowadays – partially is because no one pays for proper reviewing. Bill wrote like little article as a dairy of his events. He likes Purepower or he does not is relevant only for him. My success of failure with Purepower is relevant only for me and for nobody else.  You have faced at this site my experience with Purepower, which was a process of real reviewing and you can’t handle it. You can not handle the fact that ALL data and all results were exposed – it sounds more like your problem not the problem of Purepower. You are not familiar with the fact huge amount of equipment that has glorious review in audio press is in fact absolutely faulty and does not meet specification. You do not know about it because no one talks about it.  I know a very famous speaker manufactures who gave their speaker to review and got phenomenal puss but they later learns the they forgot to connect one of the drivers to the crossover. I know a very famous electronic manufacture who was recalled by very famous reviewer from another side of the globe because the unit did not work. Upon arrival the manufacture learned that the famous reviewer did not connect use to source. I mean this is the level of idiocy and competence you deal in the industry and you are OK with it. On the other side you were exposed to a very little more sane assessment of audio component and you got scared. Good for you…

I am not so pleased with Purepower as they keep dealing to fix my unit and they lie to their customers justifying some of my negative comments as my own failures. However, I do not invest money in the Purepower Company and all the I care is my own sound. Did you see me bitching for the last 1.5 years about electricity? Nope you did not, also you will not see Bill will be bitching about electricity. Are we buying a company reputation of you are care about own Sound? I do not try to convince you in anything but listen what you are doing? You do not use the Purepower devise but in the thread where the Purepower is being discussed you constantly come up with irrelevant comments defending your desire do not buy Purepower. That is wearing thin and I do not think it serves any purpose… to your sound.

I would like to remind you that Purepower, like most of the similar companies offer home trial for 30 days and free shipping. What else you can ask from a company? I am not trying to defend Purepower but I surprisingly trying to do something different - trying to maximize amount of sane posts at my site that I would be interested to read.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-04-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,571
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 536
Post ID: 13692
Reply to: 13689
The Full Price of Admission
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy, sorry if my outspoken attitude toward Pure Power bothers you, or your own solution to the problem has blunted or greatly narrowed the focus of your current interest. I think you mostly get where I'm coming from and you just don't like it, and your criticism is smart, and your points are well taken; but there are a few things going on here that just bug me that you either seem oddly comfortable with or you just really don't care about it in general terms, at least not any more.  Maybe it would help if I referred to APS as Fremer...

I do not think I am being "protective" of this site, but I can't think of another "manufacturer" that has so blatantly harvested only the glowing remarks from this site, to literally broadcast from their own place, to use to sell ever more units that they do not test prior to shipping, and all the while it appears that they do not subsequently fix even the acknowledged problems, either. I mean, if I find a tick on my arm, I burn it off, and if I am with a group in the woods at the time, I call it to everyone's attention.  In other words, I actually do tend to be somewhat of a "consumer activist", in some situations.

I hope I have made it clear that I am genuinely (mostly) happy for you and Bill, that your untested, faulty units none the less "worked" +/- as you wished, and that they have somehow worked out for you and Dr. Gaw in terms of the amount of time and money you are comfortable to throw at your electricity problems. OTOH, I am not comfortable giving them money...yet.

Don't get me wrong. I get your point - and I well know - about the rampant dishonesty and widespread manipulation of "reviews", etc. that pervade the "hi-fi-industry".  But I really cannot remember a more flagrant case of flooding the market with faulty gear for many years.  So, I am either pissed because they are "doing it on purpose", or I am simply wary because they are either inept or incompetent, and I want to use this forum, just as they do, to try to keep the subject completely open.

Yes, yes, the "30 day money back guarantee".  But everyone knows that the unit goes bad on day 31.  And, given that APS obviously do not screen units prior to shipping, who really knows what the problems will be?  They sure as hell don't know, and it looks for all the world like they are not really prepared to deal with problems, either.  While I am not saying APS would cut anyone loose on the 31st day, I think it is only sane to view APS' almost random failure rate and their lackadasical "customer service" with some alarm.  In fact, you acknowledged this even as you scolded me (eg, "Good for you...").

How frustrated and desparate am I about the BEP? How soon will I defy my own sense of reason and financial sanity and buy an APS beta?  How long would a sane person wait for some indication of a lower failure rate?

Perhaps it is an odd strategy to try to goad a marketing firm. But there was a recent post here where someone actually said he was keeping quiet about his concerns because he had an order pending! I hope at least that people will speak their minds.

I will keep TRYING to be rational...  Go ahead and laugh, but the perfect outcome, for me, would be that APS finally take reasonable criticism - like mine - to heart and do better!

Best regards,
Paul S
06-04-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 537
Post ID: 13694
Reply to: 13692
Is Purepower in constant Beta, perhaps, but so what?
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Paul S wrote:
I think you mostly get where I'm coming from and you just don't like it, and your criticism is smart, and your points are well taken; but there are a few things going on here that just bug me that you either seem oddly comfortable with or you just really don't care about it in general terms, at least not any more.  Maybe it would help if I referred to APS as Fremer...

Actually it is not the same.  The Fremer does not do anything that I would care, so there is not point to have interest in him. Shunyata cultivate snakes and this is why I do not care about them but it is not something that makes me to conclude that they have bad cables. The same is with Manley labs. EveAnna told me that she hate Cats. In my book the people who hate can go deservingly right to the hell but it does not make me feel that their lat say phonostage is crap. That all turns my attention off from the specific company but it does not close turn me blind regarding what they might do. In context of this thread I did not have problems with company that cure electricity – I had problem with electricity itself. I kind of feel that for me to find a way to deal with electricity is more important than to find a corporation that would provide this solution.  Pay attention – this thread is for me is about the solution for electricity problem and for you is about to appraise the solution provider. You might be right or wrong in your appraisal but it in my absolutely irrelevant to the problem of electricity cure. 

 Paul S wrote:
I do not think I am being "protective" of this site, but I can't think of another "manufacturer" that has so blatantly harvested only the glowing remarks from this site, to literally broadcast from their own place, to use to sell ever more units that they do not test prior to shipping, and all the while it appears that they do not subsequently fix even the acknowledged problems, either. I mean, if I find a tick on my arm, I burn it off, and if I am with a group in the woods at the time, I call it to everyone's attention.  In other words, I actually do tend to be somewhat of a "consumer activist", in some situations.

Do not over estimate the influence of this site. What Purepower does has nothing to do with their recent publicity. 3 years back when I first contacted then I received a number of emails from the people who dealt with them before and was warned about their quality issuers. So, the lack of control of what the do is not their reaction to hyper demands but this normal operation mode. Be advise that by nature of Purepower units (class D drive lead directly) the Purepower  generators are more vulnerable  than other topologies. Still, pay attention that I found reason to continue deal with Purepower despite of it. I do not have accommodation pricing and get no benefits of any kind from this thread. The only motivation I had and have is the Sound that Purepower units produce (when they operate properly).

 Paul S wrote:
I hope I have made it clear that I am genuinely (mostly) happy for you and Bill, that your untested, faulty units none the less "worked" +/- as you wished, and that they have somehow worked out for you and Dr. Gaw in terms of the amount of time and money you are comfortable to throw at your electricity problems. OTOH, I am not comfortable giving them money...yet.

And you might be very right as they do improve their units each month. Again, it is not about your, my or anybody else’s ownership of APS but about the sound you, my or anybody else for in the room. I wish I would find a solution comparable to Purepower 15 years ago….

 Paul S wrote:
Yes, yes, the "30 day money back guarantee".  But everyone knows that the unit goes bad on day 31.  And, given that APS obviously do not screen units prior to shipping, who really knows what the problems will be?  They sure as hell don't know, and it looks for all the world like they are not really prepared to deal with problems, either.  While I am not saying APS would cut anyone loose on the 31st day, I think it is only sane to view APS' almost random failure rate and their lackadasical "customer service" with some alarm. 

I did not see that “unit goes bad on day 31” and I did not see that APS refused to support their units after day 31 and even after the warranty expire. They do it but they do it in own terms, the terms that I disagree BTW. A month ago I suddenly receive an email from APS owner who informed me that tomorrow he will call me and we discuss how my unit might be fixed. It was a month ago and he never called. I kind of accustomed to this behavior from APS - so I just leverage down my expectations and I protected this way from disappointments. ..

 Paul S wrote:
How frustrated and desparate am I about the BEP? How soon will I defy my own sense of reason and financial sanity and buy an APS beta?  How long would a sane person wait for some indication of a lower failure rate?

I do not know BEP is. About the “APS beta” – all of the APS Purepower units ARE beta – this is the way how the company operate. They constantly change the things and they (as far as I can judge) do not have TRULY serious engendering or audio assessment recourses. So, they keep fishing, sticking to better solutions and running away from bad one.  They are constantly in Beta mode. It is what it is. I have absolutely no problem to run my unit in Beta mode if it stable and if it deliver the result that I demand.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-04-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 112
Joined on 03-15-2010

Post #: 538
Post ID: 13696
Reply to: 13694
Pure power testing
fiogf49gjkf0d
Paul: You are completely wrong. While they may not have tested every unit in the past, they do now. They even send graphs of the testing results with the unit. I spoke with their engineer before sending one of my units back for a problem that turned out to be a blown fuse, probably due to my running the unit at close to its maximum parameters or over, and he stated that they implimented a strict testing and burn-in program due to the costs of paying for the shipping of units that previously needed to be returned. It is in their best business interest not to have to pay for defective returns.
While the testing may not be exactly what Romy would consider optimal, they do run it at 70% load, and adjust parameters to give as good a sine wave as possible while checking for any faults in the units.
Again, these units have given me the cleanest electricity and sound that I've been able to accomplish over the past 30 years, haVING HAD AND TESTED innumerable different so-caled AC cures in my system.
So until you plunk your money down and try one of their units in your system, please refrain from commenting on that which you do not know.

Bill
06-04-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 539
Post ID: 13698
Reply to: 13696
Ok, let me disagree with this as well.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Bill wrote:
While they may not have tested every unit in the past, they do now. They even send graphs of the testing results with the unit.

Well, I had the very same assurance from them that “we test every unit”. However, when you ask them what they do testing then they will have difficulty to describe it or describe the things that are semi-laughable. The graphs that they send are also absolutely irrelevant. Saying this I do presume that they do invest nowadays more time in QA then they did it in past
 Bill wrote:
I spoke with their engineer before sending one of my units back for a problem that turned out to be a blown fuse, probably due to my running the unit at close to its maximum parameters or over, and he stated that they implimented a strict testing and burn-in program due to the costs of paying for the shipping of units that previously needed to be returned.

You heard it once, after a first minor problem you had right?  How people shall react if the hear it after each problem they had? How many times you think a person shall hear this assurance to become doubt?
 Bill wrote:
Again, these units have given me the cleanest electricity and sound that I've been able to accomplish over the past 30 years, haVING HAD AND TESTED innumerable different so-caled AC cures in my system.

The whole point is that the sound that Purepower produce has absolutely nothing to do with cleanest electricity. The amount of distortions that Purepower outputs is higher than other devises and highly fluctuate with the load type. Still, for whatever reason the sound that Purepower out is hear and shoulders above anything else out there.
 Bill wrote:
So until you plunk your money down and try one of their units in your system, please refrain from commenting on that which you do not know. 

Bill, I think it is absolutely wrong argument. The fact that somebody “plunk money down” is absolutely irrelevant and we are not taking about ownership but about the experience with sonic results. I find the Paul’s position toward Purepower is irrelevant not because he has no vested ownership interest but because he has no idea about the sonic consequence of using Purepower. With know it is difficult for him to assess how much Beta suffering would be considered as “tolerable”.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-04-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,571
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 540
Post ID: 13699
Reply to: 13698
Experience? Right? Wrong? Still Waiting...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Bill, I hope you fare better with your units' operation than others who have written in to various forums.  From these posts, assembling anecdotal data, it is not difficult to extrapolate rough failure rates, which appear to be just about luck-of-the-draw, which at least appears to indicate ??? QA.  Further, based on a fair amount of corroberating evidence to the contrary, at this point I take your "insider" report about APS QA with salt.  As for your directive that I, "...refrain from commenting on that which you do not know", please save this sophomoric take for the sites where people live and die by brands, etc.  Setting aside my "wrong viewpoint", at 61 years of age, with 45+ years at hi-fi, and almost as many years in business, I certainly have had enough "experience" to make the generic observations I have made, based on data available to anyone who can read and piece it together. And you never did say if it was just the one (of 2...) or if it was both of your units that failed to self-spec...   We already know from reading about it here that although Romy's unit works where it counts, it has always been defective by APS' own standards, and by their own admission, just like all the other units Romy had from them, etc.

Like Romy keeps saying, and I really do get it, to the extent that APS have "succeeded", they have done it largely despite themselves, and the things you appear to be defending are not really factors in the "success" of these units, at least not to date.  Of course, I hope you are "right", and I am certainly willing to be "wrong", if that means they start shipping consistently reliable units that self spec AND sound good.  I suppose I am ready for a certain amount of "beta suffering", but I think, not so much as appears likely at this point, based on currently available reports vs. my present hi-fi budget.

Best regards,
Paul S
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