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12-19-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tuga


Posts 174
Joined on 12-26-2007

Post #: 41
Post ID: 9205
Reply to: 9201
NOS and the highest quality Red Book reproduction
fiogf49gjkf0d
 alexd wrote:
by the way we are using Analog Devices dac IC in 16 bits version (DAC18), we will be using<br>Texas Instruments in our 24 bits version (coming soon). The DAC18 got its name, because it took 18 month to create this product. It is not intended for music server application,<br>but for highest quality Red Book&nbsp; CD reproduction.


Hello Alex,

In my experience NOS DACs neither provide "excellent dynamics and unsurpassed sound quality" nor "a highly-accurate reproduction of the original recording."

Frequency response: 20Hz - 22.05KHz
Signal/noise: 90db

What made you follow that route? Was it all the internet hype about the Kusunoki minimalist concept?

Regards,
Tuga


"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira Pascoaes
12-19-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 42
Post ID: 9206
Reply to: 9197
Beyond the transport
fiogf49gjkf0d
Alexd wrote :

"...most of them do not sound as good as good quality 16Bits cd transport..."

"Most of them"... Well you are honest; enough so to admit that some do, though they may not be of your own creation.

"...Our DAC improved computer generated output (SPDIF or USB-AUDIO) significantly, still the sound is better from High quality CD-Transport..."

Again, very honest.

Based on my experience, I would encourage you to keep trying; it is possible. In my case, the CD transport (which is no slouch) is soundly beaten. Apart from using it to make the occasional comparison, I have not touched the CD transport since unpacking the DAC.

"...The approach of connecting MAC or PC to high quality External DAC is not an audiophile solution. The switching noise from MAC or PC power supply will find its way into your digital signal, which will cause jitter, noise, reduced soundstage, and harshness on your analog output..."

I consider that excellent news... The last thing I want is "an audiophile solution"! Ok, just a bit of humor... I know what you meant to say. In my case there is no discernable difference in sound quality when powering the computer from its battery versus from its transformer (I use a USB DAC with a high-sensitivity all-horn system).

I wish you the best,

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
12-19-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 43
Post ID: 9207
Reply to: 9206
The media is the bitch.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
In my case, the CD transport (which is no slouch) is soundly beaten. Apart from using it to make the occasional comparison, I have not touched the CD transport since unpacking the DAC.

Jessie, I see an inconsistency in what you say. You are pleased with your USB DAC driver from you DAW but you still load files to you music server from CDs, that mean that you still read then via some kind of transport, would it be DAW transport of external dedicated audio transport. Where I see the contradiction is in my view is that what we look at the performance of the transports we need to abstract ourselves from our takes on DACs. Feed the DAW’s transport and dedicated audio transport into the same DAC. Do you still feel that it is “soundly beaten”? 

Let me give you a test to discover for yours where the sound is been lost. Find a raw stream from any good A/D converter. You must not use DVD-A, SACD of any other souses – they are already ruined by media. You need a raw 16/44stream from A/D. Save it in 16/44 format and listen it from you music server. Then use any available fore you mean to put this file to CD and read it from any transport you have. No matter what you do you will have severely worsened sound, make a conclusion.

The point is that CD format itself, not even the 16/44 is a bitch. The same is with any other format. You might have a good 24/96 file but as soon you load it to DVD-A it turns to shit. A raw 1-bit at 2.8224 MHz DSD is very fine but ported to SACD disks is it loses a lot, not to mention that the whole DSD conversion saga is a fraudulent in a way. The transports of DAC is not a problem the media is the problem. So, the fact that you do not touch the CD transport since you did whatever says very little as you still are touching a CD transport each time you are uploading you CD to you DAW.

The CaT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-19-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
alexd
Posts 7
Joined on 12-18-2008

Post #: 44
Post ID: 9208
Reply to: 9205
NOS and the highest quality Red Book reproduction
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hello, I must say you did not listen to NOS DAC properly designed.
Most of the NOS DACs on the market are following minimalist concepts.
Meaning, they merely are just a combination of SPDIF receiver chip and DAC chip itself.
While this approach is working in theory, in practice such a design produces mediocre sound.
The multi-bit non oversampling DAC requires rock solid bit clock to produce accurate sound.
The bit clock is recovered from incoming SPDIF signal. This recovered clock can have excessive amount of jitter.
When such a clock fed to DAC IC, the result is slow sound, compressed soundstage, lack of nuances.
In case of our DAC, we do not use minimalist concept. After 18 month of research and development, we have created
a design, that does not use SPDIF recovered clock at all. The DAC IC sees the clock with less than 3pS of jitter.
The resulting sound is really of  "excellent dynamics and unsurpassed sound quality".
As far as accuracy goes, due to the fact that no versampling takes place, every bit of sound you hear is what was recorded on CD.
There are no interpolated samples in the stream, therefore you do not replace recorded samples with interpolated ones.
There is no Delta-Sigma modulation either, we use AD1865N-J highest grade multi-bit DAC IC.
The DAC18 really makes music sound right.
12-19-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
alexd
Posts 7
Joined on 12-18-2008

Post #: 45
Post ID: 9209
Reply to: 9204
Yes and no. Still, it does not answer the question and PS.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, the issue you are talking about is very complex. You have many components in your signal chain, that contribute to the noise and signal quality,
not only in power supply,but also in the signal chain ckts. The USB A/D converters have their own power supplies, though they use USB power as an input,
they still condition power internally. So you will have diminishing results just by improving power supplies only in your  DAW.
The issue of properly handling FM signal is related to the capabilities of your A/D converters. Your A/D converters have analog and digital anti-aliasing filters and delta-sigma modulated A/D chips.
These chips and filters add their own signature to the sound. If you look at the CD/DVD mastering studio's equipment, you will see infinite level of controls on all the input gain, filter anti-aliasing filters, clock generator circuits, etc..
Even then, every recording is highly depended on recording engineer's taste and skills. In your home set-up, you have very limited control, almost everything,  except gain is preset.
As I said before, this is not only power supply issue.
Regards,
Alex
12-19-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
scooter
Posts 161
Joined on 07-17-2008

Post #: 46
Post ID: 9210
Reply to: 9208
Idea...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi Alex:

I originated this thread and have to say it has been an interesting ride for the last few months.

Now that you've thrown your name into the mix, I think it would be interesting, and is fair to ask, if you would agree to loan a demo unit to someone on the board to get some feedback. No pressure of course, and there is obviously some risk on your side which you need to consider (e.g. unit gets lost or damaged, review is less than stellar, nobody even wants to review the unit, sunk cost of 2 way postage, etc.) so I would not be surprised if you pass on the inquiry.

Just to be clear, I would not expect a 10 star rating and hyped rants about any product on this site, as it is not a review forum, but, if you can convince someone to check out your unit, I would expect you could receive, for limited effort on your part, some insightful critical commentary which could help your efforts going forward, if indeed you believe that there is room for improvement.

To keep things independent, I will not participate but maybe Mr Cat, Mr Dazzle, or someone else would be willing to spend a few minutes checking out your solution. Best of luck.

S
12-19-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 47
Post ID: 9211
Reply to: 9210
Come on!!!
fiogf49gjkf0d

scooter,

I think you are not clearly understand at what kind “forum” you are participating. There is no “board awareness” and there are no needs for any “board demo trail”. One of the accomplishments of this site that people do not give a damn about other and everyone on their own. I insist that it is the way how it shell be and if you propose other alternatives the you are in a wrong place. There are absolutely no needs for “group consciousness”. If you like Alex’s DAC then contact him directly and do not convert this site inot AA of DIYAudo type of crap. There is no need for you to discuss or to argue the subject of the “horde evaluations” any further in this thread.

Rgs, Romy


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-19-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
alexd
Posts 7
Joined on 12-18-2008

Post #: 48
Post ID: 9212
Reply to: 9210
Idea...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hello, I agree with you,there is a lot of risk involved in it.
However we do have an in home trial program.
You simply pay for the unit and shipping, we will send you our DAC. You can listen to it in your own setup, if not completely delighted, return the unit to us in original condition (no missing material, no cosmetic or electrical damage)
within 30 days, and we will refund your purchase price, excluding shipping.
Best regards,
Alex
12-19-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
RonyWeissman
Lyon, France
Posts 138
Joined on 05-29-2004

Post #: 49
Post ID: 9213
Reply to: 9206
MAC airport Express
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi Jessie :

I'm sorry if this is not the subject of this thread as I have a bit of a problem following computer/digital discussions, but since you read french, there is a fellow in france selling a device to send audio signals from iTunes to audio systems which seems very interesting :

http://db-system.fr/bd_system/Airport_Express_modifiee_-_WiFi.html

The guy works a lot with Vitavox S2s, builds tube amps, MC step-ups etc. so seems "in the loop" as far as his references.

Again, sorry if this is completely off topic.

R Weissman
12-19-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 50
Post ID: 9214
Reply to: 9209
Saying it, I do aknowledge and understand...
fiogf49gjkf0d

 alexd wrote:
The issue of properly handling FM signal is related to the capabilities of your A/D converters. Your A/D converters have analog and digital anti-aliasing filters and delta-sigma modulated A/D chips.

Actually if I am not mistaken my A/D do not use any delta-sigma modulated A/D chips as it is a pure multibit A/D. It is not important however. What is important is that for sake of A/D conversion the FM recording is surprisingly nasty thing. FM cares its stereo information in subcarrier up to 53kHz and if the subcarrier and the 19kHz pilot are not properly killed then they interferes with A/D inputs. Anyhow, this is not the subject of FM and it’s recording so I would call myself for a discipline. However, the message I would like to send that there is no need to demean FM as some kind of inferior sources. In my home FM beats hands down any other source and if you have a good local station then it would do in your home as well. Saying it, I do aknowledge and understand all limitation of FM.


 alexd wrote:
Even then, every recording is highly depended on recording engineer's taste and skills. In your home set-up, you have very limited control, almost everything,  except gain is preset.

And here is where the live FM broadcast acting as a liberation force, taking the “taste and skills recording engineers” (which are mostly insultingly-barbaric) out of the consideration. It is my favorite subject but it s not the subject of this thread, I have a separate forum dedicated to off-air audio.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-19-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
alexd
Posts 7
Joined on 12-18-2008

Post #: 51
Post ID: 9215
Reply to: 9214
Saying it, I do aknowledge and understand...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Your point is well taken.
Alexd
12-21-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 52
Post ID: 9232
Reply to: 9207
How to slow the CD readers.
fiogf49gjkf0d

I still feel that computer CD readers are not good but I do it might not be ONLY their fault. Most of the today machines have CD-Rom that juts spin too fast and it is imposable to make a CD-Rom to read at 1x speed. There is many custom softwares that restrict CD-Rom speed. Jessie, if you read your CD with computer then can you try something like this?

http://discrotate.sourceforge.net/index.html

It shell be quite a help. I do not use MAC but the similar tools on PS I remember helped a lot.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-21-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ghpicard
Posts 12
Joined on 12-15-2008

Post #: 53
Post ID: 9234
Reply to: 9232
Computer CD readers were made to read data and not audio
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi Romy,
   IMO, the reason for you to get that feeling is that from the beginning they were made to read data and not audio, thus some jitter was (and is) not considered an issue, as soon as it can be corrected.
The internal CD drive audio out (analog and sometimes SPDIF too) should not be considered a good quality one exactly by that reason, as it was built in just to provide some multimedia capabilities to the units.
On the subject of the thread, the computer just reads whatever amounts it has been set up to buffer from the CD (many times it corrects the data in a transparent way) and then writes it to the HDD under control of the program (EAC, for example). On playing the file, the USB DAC has a clock of its own and thus it is its jitter and not that of the CD reader that you will hear/feel.

Why do you suppose that by reading at 1X will yield better results when ripping / sending data to USB ?

Regards
   Gastón
12-22-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 54
Post ID: 9236
Reply to: 9232
Putting the proper spin on it
fiogf49gjkf0d

Romy wrote :

"...Jessie, if you read your CD with computer then can you try something like this?

http://discrotate.sourceforge.net/index.html..."


Yes
I can try it, but I don't know if it will work on the drives where I store music files, as it is an external RAID arrangement, connected via Fire Wire 800.

In theory, apart from reduced wear and noise, I'm not sure that slowing the HDD would have any beneficial effect (in my case, the HDDs are all but noiseless).

My understanding is that chunks of data are collected from the spinning HDD, and then go into a buffer (temporary storage) until called upon. High access speeds and a large buffer will allow the process of data collection "to get further ahead". Data is then called out of the buffer as needed, and is eventually fed to the DAC. Slowing the HDD would logically result in less use of the buffer.

I see the handling of buffered data as similar to that which might occur in devices not having a spinning HDD. I have never experimented with devices that use only flash memory in place of a mechanical HDD (the new Mac AirBooks for example).

Btw, my RAID arrangement is configured such that it allows the computer to distribute data over all drives, which results in high access speeds. No, I don't know if this is necessarily desirable. Furthermore, should one of the drives take a dump, it will effectively wipe out the entire library (meaning that backing it up somewhere else is a must).

On another note : I realize that it is not the same thing as slowing the HDD, but the iTunes interface does allow the user to specify the speed at which data is imported/encoded... I have tried importing CDs at various speeds, right down to 1 X ; I notice no difference in quality. I have not however tried this with "Error Correction" option defeated (to access this option : iTunes > Preferences > Advanced > Importing > Check the "Use error correction" box... Default is un-checked).

For info : "According to a quick bit of research", 1 X speed for CDs = 500 rpm at center and 200 rpm on the outside.

jd*



How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
02-24-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
manisandher
London
Posts 158
Joined on 09-05-2008

Post #: 55
Post ID: 9895
Reply to: 9236
Extracting data from a CD
fiogf49gjkf0d
As I mentioned in a previous post, I use EAC with a Plextor drive (with the cache bypassed) to extract data from a CD.

I have now made a consistent observation that I thought some of you would be interested in:

If I extract a new CD that has never been played before, I get a faster extraction speed than if it has been played before. This is true, even if a CD has been played just once (and has no observable scratches, fingerprints etc).

Furthermore, the 'audiophile' CD treatments that I have (bought in the days when I thought they actually improved the sound!) all slow the extraction speeds.

These results may only apply when bypassing the cache - I don't have the time or inclination to experiment using the cache.

For those of you with a Plextor, I highly recommend bypassing the cache. Do this by including '-usefua' in the command-line...

Mani.
02-24-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 56
Post ID: 9896
Reply to: 8265
Ten Questions about Computer Audio
fiogf49gjkf0d

Here is an excellent article in Positive Feedback by Dave Clark about the current options in the fields of Computer Audio

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue41/ca_intro.htm

Dave interviewed 13 designers with surprisingly reasonable questions. I would like also to see among the interviewees Dan Lavry,  Ed Meitner, Michael Ritter and Pflash Pflaumer. Also, I would like those big shots of digital industry to use their pull to make more Hi-Res raw files available as today audio people foolishly copy 16-bit CDs to this music severer and consider that it is how it shall be…

Anyhow, the Positive Feedback’s article is very good.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-24-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
manisandher
London
Posts 158
Joined on 09-05-2008

Post #: 57
Post ID: 9898
Reply to: 9896
I disagree with Charles Hansen
fiogf49gjkf0d
Very interesting!

(Didn't realise Firewire was doomed.)

Not a lot of mention of ASIO or WASAPI... although these are alluded to when talking about bit perfect playback.

I disagree with Charles Hansen who states, "[EAC] slows things down drastically, so you are probably better off just using some other program and setting it to rip at 4x or something like that." This is NOT true if you bypass the cache of the drive.

Mani
02-24-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 58
Post ID: 9905
Reply to: 9898
EAC, Mr. Hansen etc.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes, excellent.

And looong.

manisandher wrote :

"...I disagree with Charles Hansen who states, "[EAC] slows things down drastically, so you are probably better off just using some other program and setting it to rip at 4x or something like that." This is NOT true if you bypass the cache of the drive..."

Technically I might agree with manisandher; we might not be “better off” using another application.

However, in defense of Mr. Hansen (Ayre Acoustics), lets assume we want to rip a CD using EAC (or any other application with error correction) : It takes time to verify that data is or is not corrupt, and if corrupt, then more time to analyze and rewrite a corrected version of the data. During this interval, data is normally cached. When this is no longer an option (as with cache bypassed), unless the data is going to be stored (cached) in system ram, or temporarily written to the HDD (unlikely), the only alternative would be slowing down the information gathering… In other words, slowing down the rip speed.

I think that was Mr. Hansen’s point.

Depending on the systems capacity to multitask, EAC may not slow gathering all the way down to 4X.

The comments regarding EAC aside, I very much appreciated the candid nature of Hansen’s comments.

I made a point of comparing the different positions taken on preferred data transport interface (the first question)… And then, while bearing the expressed position in mind, I attempted to weigh the BS factor throughout the remainder of the interviewee's comments.

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
02-25-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
manisandher
London
Posts 158
Joined on 09-05-2008

Post #: 59
Post ID: 9906
Reply to: 9905
Ripping and playback software is important
fiogf49gjkf0d
Not all the designers actually mention specific programs, but most seem to agree about the importance of the ripping and playback software.

 jessie.dazzle wrote:

Depending on the systems capacity to multitask, EAC may not slow gathering all the way down to 4X.
jd*


One of the real advantages of EAC is its error correction capabilities on scratched CDs. But anyone who has tried to rip a badly scratched CD (I've experienced this many times with my wife's CDs), will know that it can take forever, with EAC reducing the speed way down to 0.1x if required! In the past, with very bad CDs, I have just given up and hit 'skip track'...

... which sort of defeats the point of using EAC in the first place!

One of the reasons it slows down so drastically is that the cache of the drive complicates things massively. But by bypassing the cache, you can increase the error correction speed drastically. Even with 'new' CDs, the average rip time is decreased by 3-5 times by bypassing the cache.

I only know how to bypass the cache on Plextor drives. Even here, there is inconsistency between models and you would have to check yourself whether everything is working properly.

 Romy the Cat wrote:

Also, I would like those big shots of digital industry to use their pull to make more Hi-Res raw files available as today audio people foolishly copy 16-bit CDs to this music severer and consider that it is how it shall be…
The caT


I totally agree.

In any event, until hi-res raw downloads become more available, what choice is there right now other than to do the best job we can with ripping the CDs we enjoy? Assuming that we don't have a great FM station close by broadcasting the live music that we love...

Mani.
04-02-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jp
Posts 39
Joined on 02-25-2006

Post #: 60
Post ID: 10152
Reply to: 9200
External power supply for DAW
fiogf49gjkf0d
I was looking into the power supply situation with my DAW and was wondering what viable options exist out there.  Currently, I am using an internal 600w pc power and cooling unit.  Apparently there arent many out there.  One I found was the xg magnum 600 external power supply but it looks like the company may be out of business...Anyone care to share their experience?
Page 3 of 9 (170 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2 3 4 5 » ... Last »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  The commercial music servers...  Touch screen remote...  Didital Things  Forum     37  335024  01-10-2008
  »  New  About the DAW playback software...  Best hardware with best software...  Didital Things  Forum     11  102405  03-22-2008
  »  New  Recording/Playback software..  Free stuff...  Didital Things  Forum     14  100794  08-24-2008
  »  New  To Rip or not to Rip...  Ripping with better playback...  Didital Things  Forum     2  33078  03-18-2009
  »  New  The contra-ridicules solution for a good DAW?..  Happy to see this thread...  Didital Things  Forum     1  32024  06-18-2009
  »  New  DAW drives configuration and backup strategies...  Not expensive to recover DATA, avoid Corporate Recovery...  Didital Things  Forum     3  38607  10-05-2009
  »  New  Weiss Engineering DAC202..  Attenuation...  Didital Things  Forum     5  51267  06-21-2010
  »  New  Pacific Microsonics Model Two: What Platform, Software ..  XLR to RCA adaptor. Watch out...  Didital Things  Forum     1  27080  03-17-2011
  »  New  Windows Based Transport: A quiet and capable Source?..  DAE Firmware quality...  Didital Things  Forum     47  287970  11-01-2011
  »  New  Memory Player Box?..  Maybe I will not order the Pure Teflon capacitors after...  Didital Things  Forum     2  46301  11-03-2011
  »  New  Why I hate computer playback...  Higher power cpu...  Didital Things  Forum     17  124997  04-16-2012
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