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08-01-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
coops
London, United Kingdom
Posts 115
Joined on 02-15-2007

Post #: 81
Post ID: 4861
Reply to: 4859
Picture of 703 horn!
Here is a photo of the milled steel horn, for the 703, it is beautifully made the photo is rather poor, Keith.

TAD_703_ horn.jpg
08-01-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 82
Post ID: 4862
Reply to: 4861
I would expect more “kinky” and more honest solution.
Thanks, Keith. I was wrong thinking that I know how the Gamma’s tweeter horn looks like. Needless to say that I would not agree with that horn (in context of Gamma configuration). In fact from a certain perspective, the way in which the tweeter uses it compromises some other things of the design. But here is where Gamma’s and my views are different – I do not feel that their tweeter used as effective as it could… Surely it will sound OK, and particularly from 15 feet, but at the intended but for $150K I would expect more “kinky” and more "honest" solution. But it is me…


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-01-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
coops
London, United Kingdom
Posts 115
Joined on 02-15-2007

Post #: 83
Post ID: 4863
Reply to: 4862
Cessaro Gamma's
Romy Hi, Ralph Krebs ( Cessaro's designer ) has been staying with me this week, we have enjoyed reading your site, Ralph thanks you for the interest in his speakers and says he will drop you a line when he returns  home, on a purely personal note sorry about the treatment you received on the  UK site, I can't  begin to imagine the motivation for the personal nature of the attack, everyone has an agenda! Yours sincerely,Keith. 
08-01-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 84
Post ID: 4864
Reply to: 4863
The Cessaro Gamma tweeter criticism + some solutions.

Coops, I less care about the attacks on me, I know that I am a pH-indicator of Moronity among audio freaks. So, if some specific idiots out there are not happy about me then… it is good for me. The higher we climb in mountains the stronger wind and less frequent chance meeting of pedestrians…

I would like to extend a little my comments about my dissatisfaction with the Gamma’s tweeter. I do not like that way how Gamma’s tweeter thought-out and implemented. Sure, I did not hear the speaker but I do not need to hear it. Let be beyond of agendas and “conditions” and look at the subject of pure facts and also to fulfill out desire to pursue the Oscar Wild’s “simplest principle”: to be satisfied with the best.

I will live aside all other aspect of Gammas and will look only at the way how Gamma implements the top octave. The Gammas uses that ET-703 in custom spherical horn. Gamma put the tweeter at I presume time-aligned position. That is very good but …

The custom spherical horn depicted above is not good “ultimate” horn. Since the ET-703 kicks in that speaker after the TAD 4001 driver I presume that it crossed far-above 10kHz.  Those ultra-high frequencies have very short wavelength and the size of this wavelength approximates the dimension of the tweeter. When it happens, the waves begin to propagate themselves in the areas of geometrical shadows (the diffractions) and the only way deal with it is a complete elimination of rough surfaces (boundaries). Here is where the horn termination with negative opening is mandatory. Similar to what the French Le Cleach does only taking it to extreme. The best profile for UHF horn termination would be a full negative rollback to the whale body shape. Did I mention how a water drops self-adjust own ultimate resistance shape while they are falling in air?

However, the Gamma has no space for a full negative-opened tweeter. Here is the picture that I found in my browser’s cash. The tweeter sits well behind MF driver and has no room for maneuvering. A short HF hone makes the tweeter to have a nice wide radiation diagram but we have a MF horn oppresses it from top, the upperbass horn from bottom (a lot of wasted space between tweeter and upper bass horns) and the sides of the Gamma frame truncate the tweeter’s radiation from left and right (as it sits very deep). The tweeter’s reflections from the boundaries are relatively high. The tweeter takes too much vertical space, making the speaker too tall and making nearfield very problematic, if ever possible. That forced Gamma to make it’s top horn “angle-able” that is very compromised solution as to find correct time alignment for none-parallel horns is possible ONLY for a single point in distance. Listen the things, then make a step closer or further and the HF sound will plunge apart, screwed by the phase anomalies (depands how the upper horn high-passed) . Did I mention that the Gamma’s tweeter horn is in fact a LF booster?  Dose this tweeter needed to boost 6dB at 5kHz of the tweeter care just the toppers octave? Does it make the tweeter to run a sharper crossover?

When I initially looked on the issue I thought that the Cessaro tweeter will use a narrow horn with very tight and controlled radiation. By narrowing the radiation angle the tweeter will be able to pick a few dB necessary to match the 110dB of MF drivers… However when you, Coops, posted the picture I realized that Gamma do not go to address all those problems with narrow horn.

Is anything that I migh propose? Sure, use ribbon instead of compression driver. 

Let presume that Cessaro Gamma uses my “Water Drop” Tweeter located as Macondo uses it – between the second and third horn. The Gamma MF horn is dropping virtually almost for a foot down, positioning itself at ear’s level and MF got better integrating itself with upper bass (tested!!!). The tweeter site above MF but it sits well behind the horns, at the driver level where there is a lot of space. So the their Gamma horn will be moving perhaps 6-8 inches down – not bad at all!  Now, we have the Gamma’ hypothetic ribbon tweeter is shooting in a narrow window between the second and third horn. However, the ribbon radiates a cylindrical waveform that has very narrow and VERY sharply terminated vertical window. So, the ribbon tweeter is way less sensitive to the presence the second and third horn then ET-703 in Tractrix or Le Cleach horn.

However, even after that, a ribbon tweeter will have (in Gamma case) some extra benefits. Pretend that you sit 7 feet from your Gamma with ET-703. The ET-703 radiates 100dB with 30% of reflections from juts the Gamma frame (completely of the wall numbers). So, you get 70dB from your driver and 30dB from noise that come from reflection. The direct sound of ET-703 and the reflected sound loose identically 6dB for every doubling of distance. However, if Gamma armed with a ribbon and if it even has the same 30% of reflections (which will be much less) then you will not have 70dB and 30dB ratio of direct vs. reflected but less reflections. The ribbon, being a line source loose 3dB for every distance doubling. However, the ribbon’s reflections DO NOT have cylindrical waveform and therefore they loose 6dB for every distance doubling. So, we have the HF reflections are naturally rolled off out from the direct sound of the speaker VERY good for HF!!!  Combining it with the fact that ribbon will see other horns much less it is possible to get a lot of advantages of ribbon and to lower the Gamma vertically and perhaps enable it in near field. I think I have mention at that British site that Macondo can play perfectly integrated from 7 feet!!!  Sure, there are few other tricks that enable Macondo to do it but a very conservative use of vertical plane for those types of systems I found is very obligatory.

So, I feel that if Gamma it trying to push itself as 150K “ultimate” off-the-shelf commercial horn playback then I think they need to review this use of a compression driver as tweeter as real-estate vise there are better solution. Sure whatever I said does not touch the subject of sound for the tweeter itself. As far as I was able to observe properly made ribbons have only 3 limitations:

1) Tone-disabled
2) The lower crossover point the worst sound
3) The dynamic-sinking with stresses compare to compression drivers.

The Gamma-type application should not worry about first and second limitations: the Gamma tweeter does not care tone and will be crossed high enough. Also, the RAAL’s Alex and I in a couple weeks will be able to get results that might change the dynamic-sinking factor with ribbons as I think we found what was responsible for it. If it so them RAAL might soon be able to produce tweeters that will have the dynamics identical to the  dynamic  of compression drivers.

I relay would like Gamma try to explore the direction of more “friendly” (for their design) tweeter…

Rgs, Romy the caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-01-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
coops
London, United Kingdom
Posts 115
Joined on 02-15-2007

Post #: 85
Post ID: 4865
Reply to: 4864
Best commercial speaker
Romy Hi ,just a couple of things , in the Gamma there is another 1 inch TAD driver between the 4001 and the 703 , regarding the placement of the tweeter ,it is only recessed 3 or 4cm ,at a useable frequency range there will be negligible diffraction from the side panels.
08-01-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 86
Post ID: 4866
Reply to: 4864
Dynamic sinking?
Romy, when you mention "dynamic sinking" of ribbons are you speaking of sub-8k Hz use of powerful ribbons like the Water Drop compared to 109 dB efficient compression drivers, or do you notice this dynamic sinking no matter how high you cross over? As you know, I use ~96 dB dynamic drivers and my 96 dB ribbons crossed ~10k Hz.  In this context I have not noticed any more dynamic sinking from the ribbons than I get from the dynamic drivers. Perhaps the lesser root efficiency and general problems with my L/MF effectively mask any dynamic sinking by my own HF ribbon during my own listening. Bad power is another story, however...

Is the aim of a >10k Hz compression driver/horn to prevent dynamic sinking relative to compression L/MF driver/horns?

Shadows on the pic posted here make the initial "improved" horn profile look eliptical, at least on my monitor.

And, no, guys, I've not heard this one, just looked at it for the first time, hence the questions, based only on what I see and what I have heard.

Best regards,
Paul S
08-01-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 87
Post ID: 4867
Reply to: 4865
Are you sure it is time-ligned?
 coops wrote:
Romy Hi ,just a couple of things , in the Gamma there is another 1 inch TAD driver between the 4001 and the 703 , regarding the placement of the tweeter ,it is only recessed 3 or 4cm ,at a useable frequency range there will be negligible diffraction from the side panels.
Hm, the tweeter looks like 5-6kHz horn, the MF it looks like 450-500Hz horn. If the tweeter in this configuration is indented 3-4cm only then it sits NOT in time aligned position at all, as the TAD’s diaphragms are almost at the end of the driver.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-01-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 88
Post ID: 4868
Reply to: 4866
Even if power is good: Ribbons and basketball
 Paul S wrote:
Romy, when you mention "dynamic sinking" of ribbons are you speaking of sub-8k Hz use of powerful ribbons like the Water Drop compared to 109 dB efficient compression drivers, or do you notice this dynamic sinking no matter how high you cross over? As you know, I use ~96 dB dynamic drivers and my 96 dB ribbons crossed ~10k Hz.  In this context I have not noticed any more dynamic sinking from the ribbons than I get from the dynamic drivers. Perhaps the lesser root efficiency and general problems with my L/MF effectively mask any dynamic sinking by my own HF ribbon during my own listening.
I have writhen before that I feel that best compression drivers are capable to develop more “brutal” dynamic then ribbons. The brutally is the key as the ribbons are disabled to play impolite or boorish if music is asked for. Regardless of the crossover point the ribbons subjectively soften transients a high volume. They do not loose details but they very slightly loose dynamic. It is like you jump up and someone at the moment of your jump move the floor for a few inches down. I do not want to go into details in here, it is Cressaro thread, but there is a good chance that in a few weeks this problem might be resoled.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-03-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Merlin
Cheam, United Kingdom
Posts 50
Joined on 03-03-2007

Post #: 89
Post ID: 4901
Reply to: 4859
Could you Clarify
 Romy the Cat wrote:

Yes, I have seen that Living Voice uses it. Frankly I was not impressed HOW it was used. I did not mention it at the British site, to bogus contingent of “critics” was there, but I think if that driver is good then there are better ways to use it in the Kevin Scott’ prototype.

Rgs, the Cat
I wonder if you could expand on that Romy? How is Kevin Scott employing the 703 and indeed in your wide experience, how could that be improved upon?
08-04-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 90
Post ID: 4903
Reply to: 4901
“Fine imaging” water of the Living Voice’s lake.

 Merlin wrote:
I wonder if you could expand on that Romy? How is Kevin Scott employing the 703 and indeed in your wide experience, how could that be improved upon?
I have no experience was 703 driver personally and is therefore I could have only hypothetic ideas how it might be “proved upon”. Unquestionably and unarguably  the way Cressaro deal with 703 driver, getting rid of the default compromised horn and introducing own horn is absolutely the right direction to go (I would like to see better horn then what Cressaro came up with, with more negative opening)

In context of Kevin Scott’s speaker it is absolutely beyond my comprehension why he decided to locate his tweeter with vertical axis offset. In some cases when there is a “geographic problems” people do it but in Kevin’s case there were no real-estate challenges in his loudspeaker, so why he shifted the tweeter to the side I of the speaker I have no idea.  He had lost some very fine moments of imaging doing it and it is unfortunate. I don't sing that Kevin's mind operates by the virtues of very “fine moments of imaging” as I think is that rectangular horn should be the obstruction that mad “fine imaging” water of the Living Voice’s lake.

Rgs, Romy the caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-04-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Merlin
Cheam, United Kingdom
Posts 50
Joined on 03-03-2007

Post #: 91
Post ID: 4909
Reply to: 4903
Confused
Sorry Romy. Which loudspeaker are we talking about? Do you have a picture at all?

As for the Cessaro mod, it didn't sound very different to me - certainly not worth the effort. I'd be interested to know where they crossover to the ET-703. The Alpha certainly lacked the tangibility the ET-703 is capable of adding to the system. I would tend to look at the crossover on that model.
08-04-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 92
Post ID: 4910
Reply to: 4909
Perhaps I was confused.
 Merlin wrote:
Sorry Romy. Which loudspeaker are we talking about? Do you have a picture at all?
I was under impression that you were taking about Living Voice – the Kevin Scott's prototype of his new model.




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-04-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Merlin
Cheam, United Kingdom
Posts 50
Joined on 03-03-2007

Post #: 93
Post ID: 4914
Reply to: 4910
Clarification
Hi Romy,

Well firstly on those, the tweeter is not offset to one side - it appears to be time aligned directly behind the midrange horn and upper bass unit. Secondly, that's a JBL 2405.
08-04-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
coops
London, United Kingdom
Posts 115
Joined on 02-15-2007

Post #: 94
Post ID: 4915
Reply to: 4914
Cessaro best promising speaker
Kevin may not know much about loudspeaker design but he is master of MDF!
08-04-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 95
Post ID: 4917
Reply to: 4914
The Living Voce tweeter

 Merlin wrote:
Well firstly on those, the tweeter is not offset to one side - it appears to be time aligned directly behind the midrange horn and upper bass unit. Secondly, that's a JBL 2405.

I do not know which driver the Living Voce uses but I think somebody at my site (or perhaps at British site) told that that Kevin uses the TAD-703 driver, so I went alone… If it is JBL then it is fine, still there is no difference in context of the given discussion. Merlin, I disagree that the tweeter in the Living Voice speaker located at correct VERTICAL axis - it is offset in horizontal plane.  Kevin did not go for tripod-type frame for tweeter and used monopolde, that forced him to offset the tweeter on the right or left as the footbase of the monopode would be at exact location of the MF driver.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-13-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #: 96
Post ID: 5596
Reply to: 4773
Martion`s amps
 Romy the Cat wrote:

Sure, looking at some moment in the Orgon description I have a lot of suspicion that they use incorrect amplification  and incorrectly, and that multi-amping in there was not implemented as it should be but the desire was there.

The Cat

I heard the Orgon and I didn`t notice any electronic colorations. The midrange of course doesn`t have the sweetness of an SET, but is the most realistic I have heard from a piece of hifi. The two things on my wishlist would be more transparency on top and better soundstage.
10-13-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 97
Post ID: 5597
Reply to: 5596
Martion`s amps and speakers.
 el`Ol wrote:
I heard the Orgon and I didn`t notice any electronic colorations. The midrange of course doesn`t have the sweetness of an SET, but is the most realistic I have heard from a piece of hifi. The two things on my wishlist would be more transparency on top and better soundstage.
el`Ol,

I do not think that I was commented about any “electronic colorations” of their amps. I do not remember were it was but I read somewhere how Orgon mapped their active channels with semi-dedicated amplifiers and I while I read it I noticed that it was implemented as optimum as it “might” be. So, my comment was as a fraction of my DSET view and had more to do with architecture of the system then with the specifics of Orgon  sound. I had and have no business to comment about the Orgon amp’s sound.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-29-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
coops
London, United Kingdom
Posts 115
Joined on 02-15-2007

Post #: 98
Post ID: 5757
Reply to: 3954
Cessaro's and CES
Romy will you visit next years CES ,2008? Regards Keith.
10-29-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 99
Post ID: 5759
Reply to: 5757
If it won’t be Gamma then it will be no fun.
 coops wrote:
Romy will you visit next years CES ,2008? Regards Keith.
What of your Cessaro will be showing in there? Will it be Gamma? If you thinking to do it then who is your US distributor? Are you planning to fish one at/after the show? Me personally of course not will be going to CES, unless I will get incredibly bored, so bored that the opportunity of seeing those audio hoodlums and to hear their mostly crapy audio will appeal entertaining for me.

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/GetPost.aspx?PostID=1923

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-29-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
coops
London, United Kingdom
Posts 115
Joined on 02-15-2007

Post #: 100
Post ID: 5760
Reply to: 5759
CES
Romy Hi, how can I ensure you will be that bored ( continuing with my inane posts obviously ) half the attraction of going would be meeting you! Gamma's  are  too big and would  take too long to set up I suspect, regards Keith. 
Page 5 of 10 (193 items) Select Pages:  « First ... « 3 4 5 6 7 » ... Last »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Some Horns propaganda..  Old paper direct-radiation tweeters...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     4  87948  07-04-2004
  »  New  Speakers: a hi-fi disaster...  Good writing, T......  Audio Discussions  Forum     22  196275  01-16-2005
  »  New  The “Dead Points of Live Sound”..  Confused...  Playback Listening  Forum     28  312807  05-14-2005
  »  New  About Wilson Audio Loudspeakers..  Nagra HD?...  Audio Discussions  Forum     53  387729  10-05-2005
  »  New  The IDEAL horn system..  Serious Coax? Where?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     27  184027  12-11-2005
  »  New  Magico: Robert Harley’s upperbass mouth...  Surprisingly interesting write up by Federated Mike abo...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     35  322425  02-19-2006
  »  New  Adding one more spherical to Macondo...  It is about magnet and SS type....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     92  926597  05-23-2006
  »  New  Dream Hi-Eff Speakers for an “inmate”...  Re: An average audio person has no opportunity......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     3  54639  07-03-2006
  »  New  Srajan, 6Moons, sex industry and sapphire horns..  Unless the objective is .......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     4  66682  07-11-2006
  »  New  Tweeter for Vitavox S2. High-sensitively ribbons?..  Correction: Townshend Ribbon and sensitivity....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     64  816592  10-19-2006
  »  New  My subject of envy to audio manufacturers...  It would be fun to have somebody to pay for it…...  Audio Discussions  Forum     2  27250  02-12-2007
  »  New  German Odeon horns...  How would I play with Odeons…the murky water....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     13  156208  04-01-2007
  »  New  An Interview With Dr. Bruce Edgar..  An Interview With Dr. Bruce Edgar...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     0  69904  07-10-2007
  »  New  First Order on Bass channels: Designed for Sound..  Bass from a vented box......  Audio Discussions  Forum     16  130930  07-20-2007
  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  A link to another thread....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     120  637957  07-29-2007
  »  New  Jessie Dazzle Project..  Will this better to be auditable?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     172  1509212  08-03-2007
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