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  »  New  A revision of playback with reverberation injection or ..  18"...  Playback Listening  Forum     106  148585  08-03-2021
04-22-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Warsaw, Poland
Posts 631
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 101
Post ID: 28136
Reply to: 28123
Speakers
Thank you Romy and others for the input! For the time being I will concentrate the efforts on the Yamahas.
 Romy the Cat wrote:

 In terms of speakers and amplifications for reverberation channels by Yamaha topology it is kind of tricky. As you would be listening quote Yamaha field injection channels output you will see it is not a normal signal and you will find that good acoustic system not necessary need to be there. 

That is my big question now: what type of speakers? I don't have anything at hand so they will be acquired/DIYed for the purpose. I remember you mentioned at some point that you believed bookshelf speakers would be enough. I guess that might be true in the context of your very capable bass channels of the main speakers. I'm wondering what should I look for in the context of Dannoys + near field listening (about 2m for either speaker)?

 Romy the Cat wrote:

You are about to discover a lot of very interesting experiences and I sincerely believe service proper reverberation injection you would not be looking for an options to extend the bottom knee of your Dannoy.

That is exactly my hope. Edgar says the same thing.


 Romy the Cat wrote:

If you read carefully what I stated in my thread about ampX then you recognize the time made some comments which suggest that a proper bass during sound reproduction should not be the same signal as a driven that mid frequency channels. I know that old people pretty much bypasses is comment as meaningless but it is not, and people do not understand what I meant. What I meant however is very crucial. The distribution of harmonic context across amplitude for meat frequency and base supposed to be different and you would need a very very very very very very very smart amplifier which would not be working linear in terms of harmonics but to have on brain how to bias it in actave-dependent fashion. AmpX doesn it natively, for most of us are amplifiers you would need a harmonics equalizer, which is very hard to implement properly. Hypothetically, you might have educated bass amplifier which act at combination of direct, delayed, and harmonically reformed signal but to the best of my knowledge there is no amps who does it. So, when you see super good Bass driver in any enclosure driven by a super good amplifier.... then it is just a bad design from the people who are completely blind to the fact that a linear signal should not be driven base channels.

Interesting. I guess we all feel that "bass is different". Were your experiments with RI the motivation for ampX?


Cheers,
Jarek
04-24-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,333
Joined on 05-27-2004
Post #: 102
Post ID: 28146
Reply to: 28117
As promised...
 Romy the Cat wrote:

It is not necessary needs to be DSP 100. There are around a dozen of Yamaha DSP processors good for reverberations. I probably need to record a video about entering a reverberation injection world. If I have a time I will record it later on today


 

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-24-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 344
Joined on 08-18-2014
Post #: 103
Post ID: 28147
Reply to: 28146
Dvc
Dual voice coils Romy.  Not sure if the Auros have dvc but if they do then perhaps different amps on each voice coil.
04-25-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,333
Joined on 05-27-2004
Post #: 104
Post ID: 28148
Reply to: 28147
Debating...
 anthony wrote:
Dual voice coils Romy.  Not sure if the Auros have dvc but if they do then perhaps different amps on each voice coil.

DVC would be wonderful if any good woofers were made with DVC. I am debating whether to make my infinite baffle assembly with one driver acting as ULF and another driver as AURO reverb woofer vs to create a simple summing circuit with two resistors and to drive the infinite baffle power amp from bass crossover and Auro processor at the same time.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-25-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,752
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 105
Post ID: 28149
Reply to: 28148
The Chart
All very interesting. As far as dual VC, of course there is the Altec 604 cult driver...  As far as dual woofers, I immediately thought of textbook problems from having two membranes doing "the  same frequency range" from different sources on the same baffle, to the extent there was overlap. Since I never tried it I can't answer real world questions, but where overlap occurs theory predicts very ragged response, with extreme summing and cancelation. But perhaps that's what one wants here?

Paaul S
04-25-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,333
Joined on 05-27-2004
Post #: 106
Post ID: 28150
Reply to: 28149
Okay, now I have a name for it
I do not see any room for summing and cancelation. Where would they come from? It is two completely separate signals, both in phase. One of them has information of sound sub 20 cycles and whatever come along with second order crossover. And second will have I would say under 100 cycles delayed. I do not see why they would be competing against each other. The delay signal will run over Doppler excursion, which is in my view for those frequencies is negligible. Those two signals will be injected into the amplifier which drives the infinite puffle. So, all the time talking about integration of Base channel and reverberation channel into one channel. Of course I will need to try all of this and to confirm that that preamps that would be divided probably 10 kOm resistors will not be talking against each other. However, and this is big, really huge advantage of what I'm doing, is that even my Auro processor and Passover will be in any way impact each other, it will not impact my main channels and main amplifiers as they are not participating in all of it. I never seen the concept of integration subwoofer  and delete channel into one device. Just in case the time of first who proposed I would like to name this topology as  SBC, which come from the"Schrodinger Bass Cat"

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-25-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 344
Joined on 08-18-2014
Post #: 107
Post ID: 28151
Reply to: 28148
18"
I am building subwoofers right at this moment.   Have gone with a modern 18" that I've never heard and a large AB amp to power them.  Will be low passed somewhere around 30Hz so I doubt that driver quality will matter... at least I hope not.   This will make the system 7 ways with four bass channels including upperbass horns.

I think the quality of my bass thus far is outstanding.   Truly outstanding. Soft, articulate, enveloping, powerful and all run by DSET.  My direction with bass although similar in topology to yours is quite different in implementation.  My room reverberation is very controlled and is very even from my lowest room mode of 30Hz all the way to 20kHz.  I think this even reverb time is very important to being able to hear the room information on the recording and I am theorising that it will also help the immersive channels to function optimally.   The tremendous upside to controlling room reverberation is that bass spl is so much more even throughout the entire room...modal behaviour has not been eliminated,  but has been attenuated. 

Over time I've been following your RI exploits and although I've not had time to duplicate them I have been planning my own multichannel audio and home theatre as well. Bills contribution seems to have been valuable to you and to be honest, from what I've been able to discern from afar,  his approach gels with my tendencies.    This week, a Trinnov processor arrives and once the subs are finished and final Macondo time alignments are complete I will install the last of the immersive channels to be a 9.2 system.  The immersive system will have subwoofers separate to those that are part of Macondo, based on your experience (they are already built).

For expedience,  I am using some active JBL monitors as inmersive channels.  They use switching amplifiers and have a good sound that I think compliments Macondo, or at least do not sound overly sluggish in comparison.   Ported bass of course so will have to figure out where to cross them all to the immersive subs before too much damage is done to the sound but that should be super easy to arrange with the Trinnov.  
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  »  New  A revision of playback with reverberation injection or ..  18"...  Playback Listening  Forum     106  148585  08-03-2021
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