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  »  New  A revision of playback with reverberation injection or ..  Debating......  Playback Listening  Forum     103  148198  08-03-2021
10-28-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
DorinD


Bucharest, Romania
Posts 4
Joined on 01-20-2020
Post #: 81
Post ID: 26455
Reply to: 26423
I've start using reverberation injection after your favourable results
Dear Sirs,
Following Romy's the Cat Youtube series on reverberation injection, I started gathering info and looking for some equipment to start experimenting. I was lucky enough to get a relatively cheap Yamaha DSP-1 in perfect condition from Germany and also put to good use an old pair of bookshelfs as rear channels. I was thinking that if it sounds good enough I would expand it to 6ch.
It sounded indeed extremely realistic and I want to thank you Romy for the excellent suggestion on introducing reverberant sound field in playback. It indeed creates the illusion that you are in the right location, concert hall, stadium or else. It is one of the best improuvement I senses in the evolution process of my horn system. I thank you also for the feedback on better using 4ch instead of 6ch because I really don't want to extent it further on.
The remote control was essential in the first two weeks of setting the system. Now, because i feel that I got it right, I am thinking of replacing Yamaha with a Lexicon MX400 which would be even superior to a Yamaha DSP-3000 except the lack of remote control (but as I said, this is no longer really necesary). I am using 3 or 4 sound fields definitions and these are also available on Lexicon. Still, I'm not in a hurry to change anything because it sounds so realistic, I have nothing to ask for more.
Hope that my feedback would convince others to give it a try, it's worth it.
Regards,Dorin



It's never too late having a happy childhood.
11-08-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 343
Joined on 08-18-2014
Post #: 82
Post ID: 26504
Reply to: 26455
Good feedback
Because the Yamaha units are just not available in Aus and I do not feel paying $250 shipping for something 20yo and probably in need of a recap I ended up going with the MX400.  It is less expensive here, brand-new and while getting used to things I can just run longer cables and twirl the knobs from the comfort of my listening chair before setting it into its permanent position.
11-09-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
DorinD


Bucharest, Romania
Posts 4
Joined on 01-20-2020
Post #: 83
Post ID: 26505
Reply to: 26504
Lexicon MX400
I am curious how good would be MX400 compared to old Yamaha's; please provide us a feedback after you play a couiple of weeks with it even if you don't have a Yamaha to compare with. Thank you.

It's never too late having a happy childhood.
04-18-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Warsaw, Poland
Posts 631
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 84
Post ID: 28115
Reply to: 26230
DSp-100 alternatives?
 Romy the Cat wrote:

If you would like to experiment with it do not rush to buy the DSP-100 and there are many others and better Yamaha and not Yamaha units that do the same. If you would like to I will give you a guide over them.  The reason why I chose the DSP-100 manual is because it has nothing else but the latest version of Yamaha’s sound field processing.

I'd be happy to get the guidance. DSP-100 seems rare here. Thank you

Cheers,
Jarek
04-18-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 123
Joined on 03-15-2010
Post #: 85
Post ID: 28116
Reply to: 28115
On ebay
There are several of the dsp 100 units on eBay now for around $50.
04-18-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,332
Joined on 05-27-2004
Post #: 86
Post ID: 28117
Reply to: 28115
Wait for my video.

It is not necessary needs to be DSP 100. There are around a dozen of Yamaha DSP processors good for reverberations. I probably need to record a video about entering a reverberation injection world. If I have a time I will record it later on today




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-18-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,751
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 87
Post ID: 28118
Reply to: 28117
Some RI Clarity?

Romy, perhaps you can address in your video some things that have not yet been discussed directly. You have said that the quality of the RI is irrelevant, despite Bill says the ambient information must come from the recording, and quality is very important. Before you react, I realize that your Yamaha (and similar) RI is not the same as Bill’s ambience, so what I want to know is exactly how they differ. Have you used phono as a source? Do you run a line level signal straight from a phono stage or DAC to your DSP/RI amp? Do you low pass the output? If yes, at what frequency? If the sound quality is irrelevant, do you yet choose one “reverb option” over another for a given recording? Do all recordings benefit from RI? Does RI work with FM?>>

> >

Best regards,>>

Paul S>>
04-18-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 456
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 88
Post ID: 28119
Reply to: 28118
Yamaha did it right
For the Yamaha dedicated DSP reverb amplifiers, they actually went into various concert halls, had a special 4 microphone geometry capable of determining direction and used an impulse tone (I believe a pistol shot) and measured where the reflections came from and how they faded. This is far different than other schemes that just delay the rear channel or schemes like the Dynaco/Hafler that uses out of phase content from the original signal to generate "space".
There was a white paper on the microphone setup used in 1985 when they measured/programmed into the DSP1 (the acclaimed Frankfurt Alte Oper was one of them and is Hall 1A in the settings). A brief google search was not enough to find it. Here is the users guide however where at least the halls are described.
https://de.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/3/313903/DSP-100.pdf

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
04-18-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,332
Joined on 05-27-2004
Post #: 89
Post ID: 28120
Reply to: 28119
You're my tired but Yamaha injection might not be a final solution
I did not record the video of this different reverberation ideas, probably will do this weekend. DSP 100 was fine, was supposed to dozen other units, before they reach the very end of the line which was DSP 3000. Look up a lot of amplifiers which had reverberation processor and just rare amplifiers, very convenient to use. Those units nowadays cost nothing. If you go for more contemporary receivers then they have all reverberation field factoroed in. Amplifiers are typically quite bad but you do not want to have a lot from reverberation channels. There were many non Yamaha unit switch to the same. And of course serious contemporary Aura 3d processors which two slightly slightly different reverberation injection, in the way better and in the way worse. I would say Aura 3d it would be probably the best choice, I will explain it in video. But if you want a cheap and fast previews and you can take any old Yamaha DSP processors and try it.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-19-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Warsaw, Poland
Posts 631
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 90
Post ID: 28121
Reply to: 28120
DSP3000
Thank you! I’ve located anp paid for DSP3000. The RI speakers: what are your experiences/thoughts?I obviously miss bass energy with Dannoys. Logically, I should then look for bass capable satelites or this logic doesnt work?

Cheers,
Jarek
04-19-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 123
Joined on 03-15-2010
Post #: 91
Post ID: 28122
Reply to: 28120
Auro
I've been into high end audio since 1965 and into ambiance recovery since the 1980's using a Hafler recovery system. Then on to four track tapes and the original Dolby system. Aall helped to recover the hall ambiance missing in two channel but all didn't quite give that concert hall feel. Then came Auro and the Hall effect was complete for me. Rowuk is correct on all counts. The dsp Yamaha and Sony units take the main channels signals and add the acoustical signature from various concert halls. The problem I had with it is that overlays the acoustic signature of the original recording's acoustic onto the dsp signal, which can also be muddled by the multimiking of most recordings. Auro 3d functions in several ways to give the ambiance depending on how the original program is recorded: 1. Best is if the recording was done in auro multichannel up to 13 channels plus subwoofer which is bit perfect either in pcm or dsd. 2. Second is the ability to redirect Dolby or dts to auro. This has the problem that Dolby or dts used lossy bits. But the auro recreates the soundstage far better. 3. Third is the ability to extract the ambiance information from 2 chaannel recordings. This can be very close to the hall ambiance if the original signal is derived from stereo microphones and decreases in effectiveness as the number of microphones increases.  The one problem Romy noticed on my system with this method is that the ambiance information is removed from the main channels and placed in the surrounds. This makes the front left and right channels sound less involving to those used to listening only to stereo. But listening in stereo only allows the soundstage only to envelope up to the level of the front of the main speakers but fills tha area from the speaker fronts to several feet behind the wall behind the speakers. Using auro with the ambiance channels can recreate the concert hall feel of the sound enveloping one from way behind the main speakers to many feet behind the wall behind me, to a ceiling height above my room's.  This could be overcome by running the front channels in stereo direct from the source, with the signal being sent through an auro device to obtain the ambiance channels. Romy has done this on his system by running two signals from his source; one direct to his front speakers, and the second to his auro or reverb processor. I cannot as I also use my trinnov altitude prepro to act as a four way active crossover for the main channels.

04-19-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,332
Joined on 05-27-2004
Post #: 92
Post ID: 28123
Reply to: 28121
I do need to make a video about it.
 N-set wrote:
Thank you! I’ve located anp paid for DSP3000. The RI speakers: what are your experiences/thoughts?I obviously miss bass energy with Dannoys. Logically, I should then look for bass capable satelites or this logic doesnt work?
DSP 3000 what's the best standalone pre only unit they did. To have the same in terms of the option with a receiver you would need to go for model 3080 and up. I do not know if the larger receivers have the same exact schematic as 3000. The problems that I have seen with 3000s was that they are frequently disregulated. I had four of them and three of them were not properly calibrated. Like one channel can be slightly off from another channel. I did not try to fix them but it would be pain in as. In terms of speakers and amplifications for reverberation channels by Yamaha topology it is kind of tricky. As you would be listening quote Yamaha field injection channels output you will see it is not a normal signal and you will find that good acoustic system not necessary need to be there. However if you go with Auro, that basically do the same benefits but very different means , then you would need better amplifier and better acoustic system for reverberation channels, particulary Auro bass channels. This is why I thought to record video because the subtleties that you can implement this dedicated Aura base channel offer very very interesting and completely not explored opportunity.  In your specific case, with Dannoy's bass it will be even more complex. I think it would be too complex to deal in your case with Aura and Yamaha-style injection with big delay would be easy to integrate. You are about to discover a lot of very interesting experiences and I sincerely believe service proper reverberation injection you would not be looking for an options to extend the bottom knee of your Dannoy. With Aura you would be able to mitigate how much base you have in real time and how much you have it delayd output it is not just delayed bass. If you read carefully what I stated in my thread about ampX then you recognize the time made some comments which suggest that a proper bass during sound reproduction should not be the same signal as a driven that mid frequency channels. I know that old people pretty much bypasses is comment as meaningless but it is not, and people do not understand what I meant. What I meant however is very crucial. The distribution of harmonic context across amplitude for meat frequency and base supposed to be different and you would need a very very very very very very very smart amplifier which would not be working linear in terms of harmonics but to have on brain how to bias it in actave-dependent fashion. AmpX doesn it natively, for most of us are amplifiers you would need a harmonics equalizer, which is very hard to implement properly. Hypothetically, you might have educated bass amplifier which act at combination of direct, delayed, and harmonically reformed signal but to the best of my knowledge there is no amps who does it. So, when you see super good Bass driver in any enclosure driven by a super good amplifier.... then it is just a bad design from the people who are completely blind to the fact that a linear signal should not be driven base channels.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-19-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,332
Joined on 05-27-2004
Post #: 93
Post ID: 28124
Reply to: 28122
Auro might be a problem in this specific case
Bill, I think the bigger problem that Jarek would have if he implemented Auro, would be to ask himself in which polarity you need to turn Auro bass channels. With Danoy he has this very strange combination of the straight phase radiation and back phase  got a duration from his speakers. For whatever completely bogus reason is this combination sounds good but is soon he going to add anything to eat from the bottom it will be mess. The yamaha style reverberation has phase randomized and it is possible would be the easiest thing to add.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-19-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 123
Joined on 03-15-2010
Post #: 94
Post ID: 28125
Reply to: 28124
Polarity checker
He could do what we did with your system. Check the polarity of each driver and adjust the wiring to get the most appropriate sound.
04-19-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,751
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 95
Post ID: 28126
Reply to: 28123
RI Standards

OK, Romy, plain enough this time around that you feel that some version of RI is necessary to +/- “correct” (or mitigate) typical stereo hi-fi LF, which is wrongly presented by typical stereo hi-fi for reasons that include phase vs. frequency. Still not clear if you are referring all this back to your corner horns, or to Macondo. If you are including Macondo, how low do the lowest Macondo front/stereo channels go these days? Also not clear is how important the recording and playback system are as factors in this LF equation, apart from the mere presence or absence of RI as part of the playback. Obviously, “technically speaking”, “phase” is an issue and ultimately a problem in both recordings and playback, and we are more apt to get satisfaction than perfection in terms of phase as rendered by speakers in a room, at the end of a lot of electro-mechanical processing.>>

> >

Best regards,>>

Paul S>>
04-19-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 381
Joined on 05-22-2009
Post #: 96
Post ID: 28127
Reply to: 28126
Pop vs classical
Paul S,
 I think per the above 5 page discussion, this is very far from the usual get this component and hookup here or modify components this way. So i don't see any generic solution being advanced that is at the level of this phono cartridge or that EAR mod or this position of speakers etc.  We are not listening in the same rooms on the same equipment even leaving aside the individual sonic priorities we all have or the basic physics of our listening rooms that impact reverb. My own feeling is that what Romy is talking about would work better or at least more easily on most pop recordings than on classical since pop recordings are largely concurrent mono arbitrarily positioned and close mic'ed. With pop recordings even nearfield listening doesn't add much envelopment unless they are phasy such as Cocteau Twins, psychedelia or recorded more naturally in space. Yes adding reverb  would be artificial but no more than such recordings already are  and, if done right, might be more pleasing.

04-19-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,751
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 97
Post ID: 28128
Reply to: 28127
Well, Steve, This Is The Question...
Like you said, Steve, so I wind up understanding it as some sort of LF syrup one pours over whatever. But I don't suppose this can be correct, so I keep trying to re-frame it. Clearly(?) there are phase/amplitude problems with "playback" at all frequencies, and more so as one goes down; but I suppose I will have to ante up and try it in order to find out how it sounds to me, in my system, in my room, with me as the listener. The big hurdle for me is the idea that I could be listening to Miles Live at the Village Gate via the Village Gate DSP... Like "Being John Malkovich"...

Best regards,Paul S
04-19-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 381
Joined on 05-22-2009
Post #: 98
Post ID: 28129
Reply to: 28128
If we are taling about Miles
My thought would be try things out on his studio albums from 1960- 72 or so. Once you get to "Live" recordings in the pop field it is anyone's guess what they did including recording in the studio and adding reverb and crowd noise.  Or translate to whatever artist your music library permits this kind of test. I agree that this is going to be trial and error without having very complex futuristic DSP.
04-19-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,751
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 99
Post ID: 28130
Reply to: 28129
If We Are Talking About Recordings...
It's been a while since I read that Rudy Van Gelder at some point "revealed" that he had made secret stereo recordings of his classic BlueNote sessions. Naturally, mine are mono. The new batch oughta sell like hotcakes... It seems to me we are mostly taking a flyer with any new-to-us recording. Some studio sessions have ambience, some "sound good" despite all the musicians being in booths. Plenty of live recording suck sonically, not to mention that great performances are where you find them. Generally speaking, I will not willingly sacrifice Music for sound. How does this tie in with RI? Will RI increase the scope of my program material by bringing new life and insight into my current library and making new material available? I wonder.

Paul S
04-19-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 381
Joined on 05-22-2009
Post #: 100
Post ID: 28131
Reply to: 28130
Rvg
My understanding there is that at a very early date (~ 1957-58) RVG used fold downs from the stereo mix to create the mono mix. I'd have to research which LP was the "last" true Mono mix. So it was not secret stereo but fold down Mono. As for your metaphysical question, it is just a issue for me of making some albums i regard as essential  that do not sound good more pleasing to listen to. We configure our systems in that direction obviously but a reasonably accurate system can't salvage everything. So for pop I do have some curiosity as to any method that might make them more enjoyable to listen to. As I said they are mostly very artificial to begin with so that is not a big deal.
Page 5 of 6 (104 items) Select Pages:  « First ... « 2 3 4 5 6 »
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  »  New  A revision of playback with reverberation injection or ..  Debating......  Playback Listening  Forum     103  148198  08-03-2021
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