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  »  New  Romy The Cat's new Listening Room..  Won't be the last time he makes that trip!...  Audio Discussions  Forum     478  2779405  03-28-2010
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  2062257  07-26-2009
08-17-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 335
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 101
Post ID: 22715
Reply to: 22714
Sounds like a nice time...
fiogf49gjkf0d
...if setting up ones system and new room can be described as 'nice'.  Interesting though I bet...and if each others company was enjoyed then "nice" would certainly apply.

 scooter wrote:

- Other than some (quite) excitable nodes there is not much on the low end. Romy said adding the 2 boxes on the towers and adjustments will help. I have no clue how he will do that. There is a large attic above so creative opportunity there


This is the bit that has me particularly intrigued given Romy's advice to me in my own Macondo/Melquiades duplication.  A large room, open to the stairs, maybe a dozen watts to play with...sounds like more drivers to add to the arrays...and possibly sealing the room at the top of the stairs?  I am most interested to hear/talk about your plans or thoughts in this area Romy.

Cheers,

Anthony  
08-18-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 102
Post ID: 22716
Reply to: 22714
For now....
fiogf49gjkf0d
“A large room, open to the stairs, maybe a dozen watts to play with” that was exactly my concern from beginning. Of cause I could employ a more powerful amps from bottom but it my case it would be under 100Hz and it would be a big white flag. So, as I was setting up the playback and truing it up for the first time my primary concern was if Milq bas channels will drive the room. To my huge surprise it does. I use 4 drivers in array for now and it is very nice. Here is where my disagreement with Scat derives from. He feels that it is promising from general sonic perspective. From general sonic perspective Sound is crap of cause. However, I am listening what I need to hear and from I need to hear the result very much beats my expectations. Currently bass is somewhere 2-hdB less than it has to be (I did not measure anything) and very tight. I know the audio writers love this type of bass but I want vomit from it. Also, that is exactly type of bass I want to hear now.  The Milq bass channel is set to see  sub 3R but as not I drive it with 8R, so the amp understandably idle and eats harmonics. As I add more woofers in parallel I will drop the loading impedance, load the amp, gain softness, harmonics and gain and I think I very much might be at the place I would like to be. I have ordered a pair of 2 driver sections, let see what it will lend me. My minor concern is about power. I need to drive the room at 0db and to see where my 6C33C will clip. In this room I think I might end up with 30-40Hz, where is where my ULF might go. I still might be lucky and to have enough power to go all the way down but I doubt. Scot is right the room has a lot of very good location for clandestine ULF and I very much will consider it. I do not do any measurement at this point as I do not have my listening location locked (the furniture quandary) but I have plenty of things to do for now without measurements.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-18-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 335
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 103
Post ID: 22717
Reply to: 22716
Soft Bass
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
“...very tight. I know the audio writers love this type of bass but I want vomit from it.


I had a laugh at this...yes...soft bass is definitely where "it" is at.  I hear someone mention the word "tight" in relation to bass and immediately wonder what they have done wrong.

 Romy the Cat wrote:
“The Milq bass channel is set to see  sub 3R but as not I drive it with 8R, so the amp understandably idle and eats harmonics. As I add more woofers in parallel I will drop the loading impedance, load the amp, gain softness, harmonics and gain and I think I very much might be at the place I would like to be. I have ordered a pair of 2 driver sections, let see what it will lend me. My minor concern is about power. I need to drive the room at 0db and to see where my 6C33C will clip. In this room I think I might end up with 30-40Hz, where is where my ULF might go. I still might be lucky and to have enough power to go all the way down but I doubt.


Yes, also the SPL of those drivers in a reasonably large cabinet tuned for 35Hz-40Hz will roll off at about 12dB/octave below the about 35Hz-40Hz.  You may be lucky with some room gain down there.

The second iteration of my 1R Bass OPT for my 8 driver arrays should be wound in the next week or so...we are just waiting on some 2mm wire to arrive.  
08-19-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 104
Post ID: 22718
Reply to: 22717
Getting somewhere.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Ok, Scot and I spent another day to mingle with my new listening room. We hang some acoustic treatment and brutally covers large windows with blankets. The room become more pleasurable. I have placed an order for extra pair of drivers into my bass array. This will certainly help a lot but I would be so much more comfortable with extra 4 drivers. Unfortunately this would need to have extra 72” of room high and I do not have it. So, I figured that I install my 6 driver array and will see how it will go. 
 
 Again, the room response very good, much better then I though it will and the action I am taking navigate sound exactly where it has to go. I do think that in the end of the day the major liability of this installation will be to get a proper midbass region, I am not taking even about the amplitude but rather about structure.  A separate midbass direct radiator channel might be a good solution but I have no amp to drive it and I would not at this point built up into my 6ch amp another channel. It might be possible to drive midbass direct radiator from my bass channel as it has first order 78Hz crossover but I would need to experiment with it. For sure the idea with slant sealing loaded horn still popping up in mind… let see how it will go.


I also am looking for some kind not large acoustic defuse panel that could cover 4’ by 22’. It shell do very little absorption, mostly diffusion but at the same time to be to be decor-friendly. Oh, yes I do not want to pay $2K-$5K for those panels. I see some acoustic companies sell something similar for $100-$200 per sq. foot that kind of remind me extortion.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-19-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
scooter
Posts 161
Joined on 07-17-2008

Post #: 105
Post ID: 22721
Reply to: 22718
Virtual visit to Romy's setting up (part 2)
fiogf49gjkf0d
This week Romy was kind enough to invite me over for a few days for some Apprentice work and philosophizing. As I alluded above, my Apprenticeship contribution consisted principally of moving some audio gear, searching for some esoteric stuff hidden amongst thousands of moving boxes, holding a few tools, and connecting some non-critical cables.

Thursday was more execution. Basically, Romy strategically picked some music to listen to, thought a bit, then described a problem in detail, why it occurred, exactly where it occurred in the system, and appropriate correction. No fq or SPL measurements at all. I think that skill is the intersection of art and science and comes from a lot of thought and decades of testing / listening.

I'm sure Romy will disagree with most of this, but since I was the only one afforded the Apprenticeship opportunity, I feel an obligation to provide everyone a flavor for the set up process. Think of these few examples as a virtual visit to Romy's house which probably are closer to fiction than reality due to my very basic audio and electronics knowledge. In no particular order:

1. In the morning we disconnected the $30 DIY stepped attenuators and connected the preamp (which works better when warmed up). Consequently, proper impedance helped correct absence of lower end, collapsing sound fields, harshness, really screwy imaging...

2. As Romy mentioned above, the bass towers are still missing some new drivers resulting in an impedance mismatch in the bass channels; to solve this second issue, we dug up some industrial ceramic rheostats in his basement. One dialed in right at 8 ohms the other was wonky only got to 6. Maybe we set them both around 6. He said they would boost gain, increase softness and improve sonics. They did just that. Interestingly, those bass towers keep SPL high over distance and I think it is worth reading more about how that works. . .

3. We found the RAAL ribbons in a big green moving box and did a quick and dirty bolt on; we connected a few more horns. We used a tape measure for a quick distance measurement between the top edge of the upper bass horns and the center of Romy's chest in the listening chair. Then we eyeballed everything else for quick alignment. This all got thrown out of wack as we changed cables, replaced tubes, moved the chair around. During this time, Romy detailed a bunch of specific issues from higher fq waves bouncing around and said a little bit of temporary diffusion & absorption would help:

We hung that dainty clock above the left side windows. Romy said that it was a very good diffuser (even without those plastic leaves!?)

Fortunately, his wife did not see us put three large screws into the freshly painted wallboard below the clock and above the windows closest to the speaker column to hang a child-sized brown $3 blanket which partially draped over two of the windows

Romy put another $3 blanket on the wood floor (a few feet front and outside the right speaker towers)

Behind that blanket he leaned 2 of those white foamy absorption panels on his step ladder at roughly 110 degrees (the stepladder had a horizontal foot at the bottom so I think that angle was strategic simply to prevent the panels from falling down)

FYI room already had a bit of sound treatment but no furniture: large oriental rug partially covering hardwood floors, large record racks fairly populated on right side towards the back, cd racks on back side, lots of moving boxes, a listening chair, and a pleather office chair. The floor also was littered with a bunch of tools, cables, mysterious equipment, some trash, and a few tubes that Romy replaced

The windows, back wall and front wall need some treatment

4. Listened to some mono piano (I think partially for imaging troubleshooting)

5. We put those SRA tables under equipment, rewired some stuff, organized the cables with zip ties, checked driver phases with a specialized hand-held gizmo, and connected the power regenerator. Romy talks about the Pure Power on the electrics thread; it works as he described (and has a special screen off mode)

6. I also asked Romy why he didn't upgrade his time-alignment parabolas from two-dimensions to three-dimensions (e.g. not running horns parallel to the floor). He said basically that three-dimensional time alignment would require locking the listener's head with a vice in one precise position or ALL channels would be off; two-dimensional provides some reasonable margin of error

For your entertainment, during the day I thought the playback was improving but sometimes was a bit imprecise and boring, the lower registers of the piano sometimes came from a different room, some (but not all) larger percussion instruments suffered from fq that was obviously cut off, some lower strings / horns were grating, the harpsichord sounded like a child's instrument, etc. In some cases Romy just told me I was wrong (he was quite polite, in fact). In some cases he said that didn't matter and will be corrected in due time (e.g. by bass boxes coming in September, room treatment, time alignment, fine tuning, injection channels, etc.).

At the end of the day, we listened to music and despite all the outstanding set-up required, those were an enjoyable and sometimes spectacular couple of hours. Principally due to music selection. Sometimes those horns and bass towers got orchestral big. I also asked Romy how he felt about progress. He said he was quite happy as room is better than he expected and that virtually all problems will be solved by set-up and acoustic treatment. He thought the system was about 35%-40% of where it will be at say the end of the year. After final set up, he sees a reasonable probability (say around 40%) that bass and/or mid-bass will need to be revisited. This also might mean the listening position is closer to the front of the room? Interestingly, over the three days the listening chair creeped over 1.5m forward

There is a lot more to come. For example, Romy brainstormed some very special ideas for the front wall but I won't let the cat out of the bag...

In closing, I would like to thank Romy, his wife, and the Russian women for their superb hospitality. Really appreciated the opportunity
08-20-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 177
Joined on 06-12-2009

Post #: 106
Post ID: 22725
Reply to: 22718
Diffusion
fiogf49gjkf0d
I feel I can note here my diffuser findings. I would recommend a polycylindric type diffuser like GIK poly. I have them and I like them much better than the QRD type diffusers In my room with horns speakers. The poly is much more gentle and unnoticeable sounding in a good way. It does not try to force the tonality of the sound of the room in its own direction but takes the existing sound signature and works diffusion with that existing sound signature. It's easy to make and cheap if you don't want to buy GIK product just for experimenting. Buy bendy plywood 4'x8' and give it a light curvature and prop up from the floor or mount in the needed area temporarily. The bendy plywood sheet is about $40. Just make sure to get the right direction of grain (bendy comes in two grain directions) so you are getting the needed direction of the curve. Horizontal vs vertical.
08-21-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 107
Post ID: 22730
Reply to: 22721
Waiting two other shoes to drop…
fiogf49gjkf0d
This is amassing how fat and how lazy I have become lately. I undissipated from myself much more productivity in room setup but the things progresses 20 times slower then it would years back. For sure my deteriorating physique is factor but there is also another factor that despite my slow speed and zillion of self-inflicted distractions I do appreciate in myself – this time I do not do wrong moves. I remember that during my setup of my former room, even I knew what I was doing; I still make quite a few actions that I needed to redo. With the experience I learn I can run many scenarios in my head and do not do defective actions. This makes me to behave strange: I sit in my listening chair, with or without music and just look at the playback, or sometime just walk around room. My fifty keep asking me what I am doing and always tell her that I am very busy and I am thinking. The irony is that just sitting in there, sometimes for hours I run in my head ideas, evaluating them, etc. It might “look” retarded but I actually very comfortable and happy. I have many “passed” ideas and formed for myself a number of “to do project” that I am very certain will work out very well. I think I will be able to make this room to sound very good. I will not have here my 40Hz horn as I had in my former room but…. I actually might do and I realized that I do have space for it. That for sure will be very interesting my inner debate of room setup methods…


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-21-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 108
Post ID: 22731
Reply to: 22730
Space behind
fiogf49gjkf0d
My Boston listening room was relatively high on absorption. It sounded spectacular despite of it but it was small. By last listening room was also slightly over damped, not as much as by Boston room. That was before Amy. As Amy moved with me she begin slowly destroy my listening room and even I was trying to maintain some acoustic dignity but her concept of color matching and female esthetic (means meaningless and purposeless but cute) kind of took over and I am in way lost the “perfection in room Sound” that I had before her. My former room had a lot of unis wonderful features. The major liability of my former room was a load-caring 4 feet wall just behind my listening spot. I spent a lot time to neutralize it and have done it by ugly methods, the methods that Amy did not like and her final victory over me was hand over my super critical 4 feet wall a super cool looking brass rubbing that give to my listening room a feel medieval dungeon and give to my listening spot a terminal cancer of a focused acoustic feedback. 
 
The new room is kind of infinite. My latest setting is to use Macondo in semi nearfield. Yep, the nearfield! The listening distance is somewhere near 8 feet. This gives good 15-16 feet behind the listening chair and gives a great space for bass development behind. I never had with my room a lot of free space behind and this is a very good opportunity to play with it.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-05-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 109
Post ID: 22768
Reply to: 22714
Slowly going back to the business.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I am telling you: with having 3 under 2 kids is kind of hard to deal with anything in audio…. Nevertheless, the twins doing great and I am slowly returning back to my listening room setting. I got the room furniture, necessary room decoration, drapery and acoustic treatment that I would like to use for this room.  I will be putting it up week. I am working now on adding 2 additional woofers to my bass towers. I got the boxes, made, painted then and not I juts need to mount the drivers. Doing some preliminary assessment of the room I very much like the result and I am very enthusiastic and naturally very curios about the final result. 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-05-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 298
Joined on 06-02-2004

Post #: 110
Post ID: 22769
Reply to: 22768
Keep on truckin'
fiogf49gjkf0d
But before too long, it will seem, you'll miss these days of building a new system and new human beings.
09-07-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 299
Joined on 02-11-2009

Post #: 111
Post ID: 22771
Reply to: 22769
New kids: Charlie and Abbigail
fiogf49gjkf0d
Charlie and Abbigail
you are welcome to new world
i wish the best
09-10-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 112
Post ID: 22772
Reply to: 22769
Audio vs Video playback.
fiogf49gjkf0d
My new listening room is progressing and it is turning quite nice. I put the screen, install the projector, find the furniture configuration, find and install the proper acoustic treatment and did many others small but important things. The main question that I am asking myself not and do not find an answer is to use or not Macondo for audio. 
 
The room meant to use for audio and for video with very mind change prime listening location. I have no problem to connect my video player to preamp of my main audio system and drive video programs over Milq and Macondo. The alternative would be to put behind Macondo some kind of speaker level of Dunalavy SC-3 driven by SS amp and to run video circle from an isolated audio platform. The advantages of isolated and integrated Audio vs Video playbacks are obvious and at this point I do not know to which direction I would lean.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-11-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JJ Triode
Posts 99
Joined on 09-12-2007

Post #: 113
Post ID: 22773
Reply to: 22772
Audio and video separate or combined?
fiogf49gjkf0d
I think you will only be able to decide about this after listening to some operas or other video-audio through the big system.  The analog output of the video player may be good enough for the purpose, or it may sound terrible through the Milqs/Macondo, like playing an MP3 through them.  In the latter case, one compromise to try would be taking a digital audio output from the video player (if it can provide one) and running it to one of your good DACs, then to the preamp as an analog signal.  That might sound significantly better.

As a separate system, I am surprised you mention something like Dunlavys--what happened to Cetla Ledom 91?

In my house I have a separate, quite primitive audio support for video, but that is mainly because our layout and lifestyle dictate having video in a different room from the "serious" music system.  Also, having "too good" sound with movies might be a distraction from their cinematic content (we do not have any opera videos) and the sight of even a not-turned-on video screen would be an aesthetic annoyance and distraction from "real" music, at least for me.  I can understand the latter might be a non-issue for others, good for them.
09-11-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
scooter
Posts 161
Joined on 07-17-2008

Post #: 114
Post ID: 22774
Reply to: 22773
AV
fiogf49gjkf0d
Glad to hear your bigger family is doing well and that you are making good progress on the room.

Why not try a quick test. Try connecting your laptop to the big system, put the laptop a few feet in front of you and watch a movie or a concert? That will give you an idea if you enjoy using the big system when watching videos from the big sofa (without the big screen covering half of the horns which I think it does).

Obviously, a dedicated audio system for movies has some advantages

- Easy set-up for your family

- Family and friends can't break anything expensive

- You can plan around that big screen (did it cover part of the horns? regardless it will impact sound a lot)

- Some proper set up and time alignment for big sofa (assuming you are using a dedicated and moveable near-field listening chair for audio)

- I guess you could put in the extra surround channels (not really an advantage)

- Low power consumption

- You could put the AV speakers on "elevators" and have them rise out of the floor when you put the screen down.
09-11-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 115
Post ID: 22775
Reply to: 22774
Yes, I will need to experiment with it.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 JJ Triode wrote:
As a separate system, I am surprised you mention something like Dunlavys--what happened to Cetla Ledom 91?

JJ, the Cetla Ledom 91 would be nice but it is quote demanding size-wise. I can accommodate the size but I am not wild about the view of Cetla and Macondo are sitting at the same firing range. If my wife taught me anything then it would be the concept of decor matching. Visually Cetla and Macondo are the animals of different breed and they will not work out together. The Dunlavy III in contrary are very narrow small footprint speakers that would fit perfectly next to my woofer towers. For sure Dunlavy would not do the LF glow that Cetla’s bass driver can do to a degree…
 scooter wrote:
You could put the AV speakers on "elevators" and have them rise out of the floor when you put the screen down. 

Yep, this is the solution! With all seriousness I am thinking to put some mini-monitor level acoustic system or Dunlavys with some kind of sub for movies. The bigger question is: will it be a problem for watching operas and concerts? I am not wild how operas and concerts are recorder on BlueRay, so it might be that some crap audio playback is all that needed. Cetla did very good job for operas and concerts on my former Opera Room but do not be mistaken: it was not great to play music CD.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-12-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 116
Post ID: 22776
Reply to: 22775
A good configuration.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Thinking about it again and again I decided for now to have integrated connection of my AV. The BlueRay player will be plug to the preamp of the main system. The preamp will drive two power amps: Milq and SS amp. The Milq will drive the full scope of Macondo and the SS amp will drive some kind of cheap and less capable acoustic system (Danlavy or the similar). This way my inhalation will have pilot speakers – something I always thought good to have. The pilot acoustic system will fine for films and if I feel that we are watching a good concert or opera and the sound of Video playback (pilot) need to be better then I could just flip the Milq switch on.

ListeningRoom_Box1.jpg


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-12-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jeff1225
Posts 23
Joined on 01-10-2011

Post #: 117
Post ID: 22777
Reply to: 22776
Injection Channel
fiogf49gjkf0d
Looks good Romy....Will the injection channel make a return?
09-12-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 118
Post ID: 22778
Reply to: 22777
It will come later.
fiogf49gjkf0d
There is a lot that is not there yet. There is no injection channel; there are no 2-drivers extension for bass towers. I am progressing slower than before: 3 kids under 2, so it is kind of hard. The injection channel will be in a new enclosure, the old one was a bit too bulky and too large doe 110Hz crossover. Also, the injection channel is kind of finesse and it goes after everything else is perfect. I am far from that, so I do not need the injection at this point. If I have time I would time-align the playback – this is way higher in my priorities then to make new boxes for injection channel. 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-14-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 119
Post ID: 22779
Reply to: 22778
Going there....
fiogf49gjkf0d
I did finish today the 2-driver extension for bass towers. I did not mount them to the default location – waiting for a “friend” to come to help me to do it. As I finish it will be exactly the same configuration that I had 7 years back in Boston.

I was trying also to decommission my injection channel boxes and order new, 3 times smaller. As I opened them up I was shocked with love and care I put in to do it. They finished inside with a combination of hard and mid density foam and covered with wool. They are done so nicely that I decided to keep my original injection boxes and as monument of my anal retentiveness. I do not think I have now in my as much energy to dedicate so much labors of love to single sealed boxes.

I also have now in my listening room a second listening chair. Thomas is turning in quote listener in his 22 month, who would believe!






"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-15-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jeff1225
Posts 23
Joined on 01-10-2011

Post #: 120
Post ID: 22780
Reply to: 22779
Toddler Listeners
fiogf49gjkf0d
my 6 year old has been my main listening partner since birth. One of my proudest moments as a father is when I put on tchaikovsky's 5th symphony and she said at 4 years old: "it's the Nutcracker guy." She could discern that the same composer created both works just by listening. 
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