GoodSoundClub - Romy the Cat's Audio Site

07-22-2010

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,577
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	121
Post ID:	14084
Reply to:	14082

The Near-Parallel Sides

OK, that all makes good theoretical sense, and the theories are borne out in terms of sound with OB, BR and sealed LF. But how many people have heard a long horn that was not compromised in fact by what could generically be described as "self-noise", and are the most successful horns not also sharply dedicated to a narrow range? Especially at LF, we must divide to conquer, and I don't see how a horn would change this, at any rate.

In my case, it is probably irrational, so why do I keep having the sense that the long, near-parallel sides make for unwanted noise?

Best regards,
Paul S

07-22-2010

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #:	122
Post ID:	14085
Reply to:	14084

Parallel what?

Paul S wrote:
…. why do I keep having the sense that the long, near-parallel sides make for unwanted noise?

Paul, you not suppose to reply to ALL posts and let keep the thread free from any hallucinations and further baseless arguments. This horn has no near-parallel sides. There is absolutely nothing in there parallel.

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

07-23-2010

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #:	123
Post ID:	14088
Reply to:	14064

A heavy-mass elastomeric coating needed.

I made some experiments with my roofing cement I am not too impressed with it. The biggest problem is that it solidifies too long. I wonder if anyone knows of any sticky, fast-drying, heavy, non-toxic, elastomeric coating that can dry “in depth” (let say 1-2 inch) and will be liquid enough to be mixed with sea sand. I was considering different versions of 5-pound close-sell foam but it look like what it dry it too dry for my application. I would like my coating still to have some rubbery feel, not too rubbery as it will overtrump my horn. I would like to be able to wary the level of horn damping by the depth of external coating sure. I can’t be certain how much elastomeric coating would be too much. I would like do not create a completely dead horn. I would like horn to breathe with own resonances but I would like those resonances to be subordinated to the driver and do not be systemic. I think if I apply the loaded elastomeric coating in more or less chaotic locations then it would break the permanence own harmonics of my horns as a construction devise. At least this is a hope…

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

07-23-2010

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,577
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	125
Post ID:	14090
Reply to:	14088

Materials for Mass Loading Wooden Structures

Romy, I often work with materials like this, for specialized restoration and reinforcement projects, and I have used it for my own speakers, as well. You mention ~ 1/2" thickness, and indeed thickness is an important consideration in selecting most of these materials. I have used "medium set" acrylic-modified marble and stone mortar mixed with various proprietary cement products with good results. Custom makes good, reasonably priced modified marble and stone mortar, and Rapid Set makes two similar products I admix with the "medium-set" morter, depending on the end use thickness I want: I use Rapid Set's Mortar Mix (contains medium-fine sand) for 1/2" thickness and above, and I use Rapid Set CementAll for thicknesses significantly under 1/2"; the CementAll (if there is sand, it is very fine) will basically feather down to "zero". All these products can be successfully intermixed to specific advantage by someone who understands their properties.

Althought these combinations are very stable, it never hurts to staple expanded metal mesh down prior to application. I have also tried a few times a new thin-set and medium-set mortar called Versa Bond that is formulated to work without mesh to span cracks in concrete slabs without letting cracks "read through" tile set directly over these cracks. You MIGHT be able to use this stuff without mesh; but because of the way you will be building the horn, I think it will move around too much for any mortar without mesh; not to mention the fact that the Versa Bond is $30/sack...

Most all of the "flexible" mortars you'd want are slow drying. Most of the stable "cement" products are fast drying, especially in hot weather, although they do sell crystals to mix in with the water that extend working time. Mixed, the two "mortars" give reasonable working time for a pro, given realistic batch sizes, TBD.

If you build the first part (throat) of your horn from wood, you might use this sort of admixed material to "parge" the inside of the throat to make it any shape you want, and you could also use it to transition and tie smoothly into to the main, 4-sided part of the horn. Applied with care, this stuff sticks to wood, most metals, and many other materials very tenaciously, particularly if surfaces to be covered are prepped with a coating of concrete "glue" prior to mesh and parging.

This stuff is heavy, like cement; it IS cement... You might want to pre-calc final weight before you put on too much...

Best regards,
Paul S

07-23-2010

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jessie.dazzle

Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #:	126
Post ID:	14091
Reply to:	14088

Damping materials revisited

jd wrote:
"...There is a Spanish company that offers a solution in the form of a semi-cured, gooey, squishy, rubbery sheet with an adhesive backing on one side... It is about 1/4" thick, and is sold in rolls... It is very heavy; a pair of 2m x 1m rolls is about all you'd want to carry over any distance..."

Speaking from experience, I cannot imagine anything that would out perform this product. It would be ideal for your application, as you could layer it on as thickly as you wish. It can also be easily cut to fit between the stiffening ribs. Also, very importatn, its properties do not evolve over time; in my case, four years later the stuff reamins just as gooey and squishy as when first applied.

In my original post I mentioned that manufacturer has a US distributor; I double checked and it seems they do not, but they do supply out of Mexico (very much in keeping with the global nature of your project... Russian conception, English drivers, Baltic birch, American carpentry, why not Spanish damping via Mexico?).
http://www.texsa.com/index.asp?i=3&prod=14

JMTEXSA SA de CV
Lote 13, Manzana 4, Parque de la pequeña
y mediana industria Altamira.
Tamaulipas. C.P. 89600
Tel. Nacional: 01 800 712 2207
Tel. Internacional: 1 888 487 4977
Tel. Planta: 833 260 2510
Fax. 833 260 25 18
texsa

jmtexsa.com
http://www.texsa.mx

jd*

How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.

07-23-2010

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #:	127
Post ID:	14093
Reply to:	13597

How to finish my midbass horn

I was thinking and fantasizing about finishing of my midbass horn. My first idea was to paint it internally with the same color as my cathedral room. Perhaps a lighter grade of paint in the end as the horn goes dark. As the only mouths of the horns will be visible from room, imbedded into the wall I was wondering if any more interesting solution is available. I have open bricks patches in my listening room, very comfortable and sexy. I was looking at them and then the idea stroked me – why do not finish the horn with brick finish. Since my horn will be look like masonry object imbedded into the wall then the brick finish will be perfect for it, not to mention that it will be a greet mach to my room décor.

I did not see any exposed brick horns and I begin to look what is available. I found that there is a brick-like looking veneer. But I am afraid that it will make the horn skin a bit compromised. My carpenter advised me to look at wallpaper. I went to the wallpaper store and I almost had an orgasm. I did not believe how great and true wallpaper-like looking the wallpapers are nowadays. They have wallpaper that makes a brick wall to looks like a different age, there are even some that looks like it have dire and spider net on it. The quietly for good wallpaper is phenomenal – it feel like plastic and has a nigh-grain texture – perfect for horns. My only concern is that in 5 years it might peal and be source of some kind of noise in horns. I need to think about it and coals with people who know wallpaper well.

Anyhow, the brick finish is something that I VERY strongly consider. I can wait to tell my carpenter that he will be cutting the wallpapers in angle in order to maintain the exponential perspective in the bricks lying. I am sure he will be thrilled.

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

07-24-2010

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jessie.dazzle

Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #:	128
Post ID:	14095
Reply to:	14093

Wallpaper adhesion

If correctly applied using traditional "wallpaper paste" adhesive, unless exposed to humidity, it will not peel, and is in fact notoriously difficult to remove (requires aggressive steaming).

I have to say though that having a sort of aversion to non-truths, the prospect of a cheesy trompe-l'œil brick simulation does make me cringe.

jd*

How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.

07-24-2010

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jessie.dazzle

Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #:	129
Post ID:	14096
Reply to:	14095

Bright idea

Another approach: Paint the horns to match the white of the existing walls/ceiling, then install light sources that shine from the mouth back into in the throats of the horns, using the horn as a sort of parabola to reflect light into the room. Two light sources per horn, one blue and one amber, with dimmers (your Pure Power unit will preempt the destructive influence of dimmers) allowing you to select warm or cool lighting according to your mood/body temp or the sort of music.

jd*

How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.

07-24-2010

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #:	130
Post ID:	14097
Reply to:	14095

I do like the brickish finish.

The brickish finish does not make me cringe, in fact I do like the idea. I do not feel that it would be some kind of non-truths. There is no truths or non-truths in it. The only a few first feet of the horn will be visible and then it will go to dark anyhow. My view of the brickish finish is combined with my view of how I might finish the ender back wall. I like brick finish and I absolutely adore it as sound detractor surface behind the listening sit. So, my long–terms décor objective are to have the mouth of the horn to work beneficial and integrateivly in the room. So, I was thinking to finish the back wall right behind the listening chair with half-brick. Then to finish the rest of the wall with something like Eldorado Brick Veneer that has .5” death. Then the hors internals with brick wallpaper. If to arrange to match the brick, Veneer and wallpaper of the same color then it might look very good, considering that I have also in the room some brick islands.

I did not decide it finally yet but I know that if I want to lay vinyl wallpaper in the horns then I need to do it while the horn on the ground….

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

07-24-2010

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #:	132
Post ID:	14100
Reply to:	14099

The Ventilation subject.

Yes, zako, the subject of ventilation and insulation is well-consider. The cathedral roof made well – it has the top ridge raised and vented. In addition I have powerful attic fan running on the other side of house. The heat insulation is another subject. I am planning to put some insulation at the bottom of the horn. Sure, from perspective of keeping the horn thermostabled it would be good to put insulation above the horn but then it would restrict the air convention right under roof, causing presumed problems (as I was explained). Frankly I do not see very good insulation pattern for horn (I do not care about room). I even wonder if I need to put insulation around back chamber, protecting the driver and the back chamber from forming dew and etc. Someone even advised me to put thermostabled electric heater wires around the back chamber, those that are used to prevent ice dams on the roof…. I do not know. I never had an attic befoe and I do not know what the climate in there…

The caT

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

07-24-2010

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #:	133
Post ID:	14101
Reply to:	13597

How long will it take?

Make you bids ladies and gentlemen – how long would take to complete my midbass horn.

We broke the wall last Fridays and this Friday we made firth plywood cut. When I said “we” I meant truly not my carpenter and me but just my carpenter as my part of work at this point is just to walk around the bother my carpenter with predictions how he will fuck up. My carpenter woks 5 day per week, from 10AM to 5PM. He borough the machines in my home and set up as shop in one of the basement rooms. In that room he will cut the wood, glue the sections, then the section will be brought to the listening room, connected, the horns will be beefed up, finished, lifted and installed in the attic. Then the room’s wall will be refinished.

My carpenter thinks that he would need 2 weeks to finish the job. I think that he is dreaming. I think that from where we now we are a good 4-5 weeks to be through. Since we agreed to make the wok for a fixed price then the money is not the factor for my carpenter to make it longer. Still I feel that on September 1 the project will not be compete. I hope I am wrong of cause.

Interesting that to cut the wood is much more complicated then I thought. The problem is not with the multiple sections and multiple small plated but with the fact that each plate has to have proper angle on it’s sides to be properly glued to the neighboring sections. That all make it kind of complicated and my carpenter unfortunately is more thinking then cutting the wood. Sure, it is not as unfortunately as I am trying to make it, in fact I am a fortunate that I have not a moron carpenter. Still, thinking does not advance the time line and there is a LOT of work ahead of us. So, I think that if in the end of August we will be closing the project then I will be very lucky. I certainly do not in this project any 2-3 weeks of work.

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

07-24-2010

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zako
Posts 85
Joined on 05-25-2008

Post #:	134
Post ID:	14102
Reply to:	14100

Insulation and horn mouth

The insulation in the rafters near the roof is very importent,,,I have some thing in the same area as you have, but much larger,,,That insulation is very important,,,,summer and winter,,,,,You will find out this winter,,,It will get to freezing temperatures,,,up there....After you finish your horn instalation,,,Think about proper insulation PLUS putting back some drywall on the ceiling rafter area with special circulating air slots to keep moisture from attic roof and insulation,,,Or your winter heating bill is really going to cost you,,,,I,m suprised how simmiler your home space is,, close to mine,,,You know how the winters are in Boston,, Maron

07-25-2010

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wvdave
wv
Posts 4
Joined on 05-18-2010

Post #:	135
Post ID:	14103
Reply to:	14102

Insulation et al.

I too believe that you will want to insulate the roof itself as a partial means of regulating the thermal equilibrium in what will be the horn 'chamber', previously aka 'the attic'. The insulation on the floor of the attic was not installed under the roof because that was seen as 'heating and cooling unused space when said space was 'just an attic'(i find this to be foolish niggardliness, but that is not relevant here). The uninsulated space will take on the outside temp in the winter and a sunlight enhanced oven effect in summer with temp variations fluctuating thru the day as with the outdoors. This situation can't be good for the horns as a whole or in the elements of their construction. Regulating the thermal environment of such horns may even allow a certain amount of 'tuning' of a sort-don't know, but I would experiment w/it after I had stabilized things as far as possible. Again, I imagine your carpenter has this under consideration(taking the existing floor/ceiling insulation out and venting would allow the chamber to come to thermal equilibrium w/the house[given suitable under roof insulation], whereas leaving the floor insulated along w/the roof would offer the opportunity of treating the chamber as an 'incubator' sort of area for the horns w/its own environment.
Your carpenter does have a task ahead of him in cutting what are a series of angles to construct the horns-thinking before doing is important here, especially w/expensive wood. I had thought to suggest a 'sandwich' of 1" particle board(not the chip stuff, but sawdust mixed w/glue and formed under heat and pressure into sheets 4' x 8' coated on one side w/ spray on automobile undercoating(two or three coats to desired thickness, each cured to desired consistency between applications) then covered w/the birch to make a sandwich, with the birch being the exterior of the horn. The particle stuff is known for low resonance propagation and is very smooth, tough, and relatively cheap-but heavy. At this point I would have suggested cutting up some of just the particle stuff for practice and proof of concept before moving on to the sandwiching, etc.
As always, my ideas are just suggestions from someone not on the scene and they are not meant to impede the progress of those doing the work. I quite simply find this a fascinating project in line w/my own 'playback' interests. I also realize that since I am chasing my own projects of necessity, I may have missed something and be offering little that is relevant. But, onward, in any case.

Age Quod Agis

07-25-2010

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,052
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #:	136
Post ID:	14104
Reply to:	14103

The voice of God machine and.... insulation-insmalation.

Ok, this all need to be rectified and probably will cost me a visit of insulation specialist. Sucks, I thought that I have an internal consensus about it.

My carpenter consider that Insulation must not apply under the roof but only to the rooms ceiling or the attic floor. According to him the space under the roof much be well ventilated and this servers a lot of benefits for roof protection. The house currently is made exactly like this - there is nothing under the roof but the attic’ floor has a lot of insulation installed. It is very possible that it is not a contemporary ways to do the things – the house is good 30 years old. I just do not know and I think I would need to consult with an insulation specialist.

The problem that I see is that if I need to apply some contemporary, let say foaming, insulation under the roof to keep my horn in sort of room temperature then I would need to do it with whole attic. I am not sure I would welcome an idea to convert attic to another livable space – I am sure this is where the insulation specialist would drive the project into. I have nothing important in attic besides the equipment boxes and I would like to keep it this way. So, I might eventually choose to use insulation only in the back chamber of my horns, not on the whole attic. I am sure it will huge be price and amount efforts difference. My rational is that the back chamber will be made with 2.5” plywood. This is a lot of thinness and my birch is marine-rated. I might just for a hell of it to apply some kind of high-end deck sealer to the outside of the back chambers to assure that it would be moisture immune. I will have 5-6” between the chamber and I might wrap a few layers of some kind contemporary thermo insulation.

I do not know now. I do not think that a driver in back chamber would have the same thermo-demands as my in my bedroom. Still, I would like do not find that my magnet dot demagnetized because of temperature deviation or that my back chamber is rotten away from horn. So, a consultation with some kind isolation professional is in order. Another “confident” guy will be walking in my house and asking me: “What in God name are you trying to build here?” Lately I reply to them: “The voice of God machine….”

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

07-25-2010

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,577
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	138
Post ID:	14106
Reply to:	14104

Insulation, Ventilation and "Conditioning"

Romy, you've mentioned that the father and son team did a good job of balancing insulation vs. ventilation in the vaulted ceiling over your listening room. While it might work to +/- replicate what they've done, at least in principle, perhaps you need only insulate around the horn and chamber, which will be tied to the "conditioned" part of the house via the horn, anyway.

Best regards,
Paul S

07-25-2010

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scooter
Posts 161
Joined on 07-17-2008

Post #:	139
Post ID:	14107
Reply to:	14105

Ice dams - experience

Hi Romy -

Do some research on the insulation and water problems of roofs in extreme situations (e.g. Northern Maine, Canada). We can have these same problems in Massachusetts in January and February. I had to deal with these painful issues at a quasi-insulated cottage in Maine. I see your attic having some of these problems as it moves from uninsulated to quasi insulated, heating your roof to higher temperatures.
My basic understanding follows, but you should research carefully before speaking with your roofing/insulation guy:

- Your case currently - An unheated house (or attic in your case) does not allow ice dams to form because the roof is not forcing snow to melt. Snow is not a real problem until it gets too heavy and just collapses the roof.

- Your future case if you don't plan properly - ICE DAMS - essentially the bottom layer of snow on your room melts/refreezes from house heat. A layer of water can not move up because of ice formed between the roof and the snow so the water creeps up under the asphalt shingles and finds a way to trickle into the house at seams, nail holes etc. This ruins your shingles because they were not designed to be flexing and causes water damage inside your house (could be a few drops or a pretty rapid stream). In Maine we used to keep the house at 50 degrees so the pipes would not burst and this caused ice dams. We solved the problem by going outside and chopping the 2 inch thick ice the whole length o the roof from the gutter up about 3 feet. This takes a long time, is dangerous and surely decreases the lifespan of the roof. Now we just turn the heat off and drain the water system in the winter and close up the Maine place. No ice dams or leaks.

- Metal roofs are an option (because they should let snow slide off) but they are very expensive, noisy and have the problem at joints/nail holes. I don't see these in Massachusetts but do in Maine.

I am not going to comment on the quality of architecture and construction in New England but would assume your house is not over designed or overbuilt, so you need to think about this now. Good luck!

07-25-2010

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,577
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	140
Post ID:	14108
Reply to:	14107

Horn as "Room"

Scooter, many houses in the Northeast were roofed by people who understand how this works, and the first few courses of shingles are "underlain" accordingly, to preclude such seepage.

In Romy's case, I believe he could simply treat the entire horn like a "room", since the conditioned air from the house will moderate the horn's temperature, etc. via the horn mouth, in any case.

The floor/ceiling area under the horn would need special attention before the horn was installed, with high-value insulation going into the relatively shallow joist bays, before the horns were slid in. Then, the horns themselves would need to be fully insulated, probably with foam, and the remainder of the "gable" wall from which the horn mouths emerge should also be fully insulated. This would complete an insulated shell around the conditioned "space", and the attic, per se, could then be fully ventilated, as it is now.

Best regards,
Paul S

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	Target	Threads for related reading	Most recent post in related threads	Forum	Replies	Views	Started
»	New	45Hz Bass Horn..	Can We Ever be Saved From Ourselves?...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	23	307444	09-19-2006
»	New	8" Goto Woofer for 60Hz Horn..	It's not a Goto 8in driver...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	5	84955	11-03-2008
»	New	The Macondo’s Upper Bass Channel: what is next?..	Görlich again...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	30	281232	10-28-2007
»	New	Jessie Dazzle Project..	Will this better to be auditable?...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	172	1515547	08-03-2007
»	New	Romy The Cat's new Listening Room..	Won't be the last time he makes that trip!...	Audio Discussions Forum	478	2795939	03-28-2010
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»	New	Midbass Horns and Real Estate...	Just a youtube video......	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	247	2072157	07-26-2009
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»	New	Practical Guide for Back Chambers Tuning...	Back chamber’s cost-benefit....	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	5	73319	10-21-2006
»	New	Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ..	Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ...	Playback Listening Forum	0	17422	10-08-2010
»	New	Midbass impedance bumps -- why and what to do?..	You need to stop deceive yourself....	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	18	188015	10-21-2010
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»	New	Impulse response, short notes and midbass horns...	A possible solution to better impulse?...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	14	123804	06-13-2011