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02-24-2006 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


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Myth of CD clocking = True/False

I wonder how myth in all those digital gismos and how little what we considering in digital is obvious and self-explanatory in reality has not relation to Sound. Also, how much those people with who just learned how to solder and let their blind (and deaf) solder to put themselves on a position of audio experts, in reality, how much they get the results that worth any attention?

Playing with Lavry AD, DA and Lynx 16 digital interface I was wondering how much the rumors about using one clock as master and others as slave would actually affect sound. I’m not talking about some conceptual justifications but the actually auditable sonic BENEFICIAL results.  Different Morons assured me that “the external master clock or a master-slave scenario is the way in which it should be done”. They also proposed that I should buy $4435.54 cables to synchronize the clocks…. :-) I’m a gullible person and I extend a credit to anyone who knows a difference between faraday and coulombs but I am very suspicion to the judgments of the people who do know a difference between Bach and Bax. They bring different technical justification why master clock up-stream and down-stream would be better or worth, dropping the big professional names and mention as their hi-fi references the digital crap like Wadia, Spectral, ML and so on. I was little suspicion, as I know that those digital experts personally can’t perceive Sound and they have very primitive reference points regarding Music reproduction. Well, after the actual experiments and the actual listening of the external clock configuration I surmised that what I expected was correct – the internal clocks and the master-slave scenario did work better. I have no explanations why, nether do I care why …

Another example: I have a Superclock lying around and I decided to listen the Morons and to put it in my CEC TL0 CD transport.  The Audiocom’s Superclock is an aftermarket $300-worth discreet clock generator made to minimize jitter.

http://www.audiocom-uk.com/control/news/anmviewer.asp?a=162&z=15

The substitute clock has very good publicity from the average audio crowd… and this made me always little afraid. The guy who suggested me the Superclock was Kyle form Reference Audio Mods. Kyle-like operation is kind of become very typical: those people run their mouth about anything using like parrots the very same words and the very same thoughts that were pre-developed for them. They usually have very little real meaning behind the words and have very primitive actual sonic results in their listening/demonstrating rooms and very-very, extremely low, reference points in regard of ASSESSMENT of reproduced Sound. For year I use those tweakers guys as an indicator of the most revolting tendencies in audio. Black Gates Capacitors, silver cable and the rest audio foolishness derive directly form the efforts of those audio vandals.  Do not get me wrong. There is nothing wrong with Kyle and with those people. They all run the honest businesses where they provide the services with a scope of own knowledge and understanding – unfortunately very limiter understanding and very irrelevant knowledge. They juts server completely different domain of demands in audio and they regrettably to unable to understand neither the real Sound not the civilized method of accomplishing Real Sound. Am I wrong? Well, visit Kyle, listen his playback, paying attention to his system’s intentions and the system’s objective. It will be enough for you to learn what you deal with. I made my mind after attending the Reference Audio Mods demonstration at CES…

Anyhow, coupled days back I put the Audiocom’s Superclock into the TL0. The rational was reasonable: since my DAC has no own clock then putting better clock into the transport would presumably improve the entire digital chain. Well it was a purely intellectual rational that had no relation to anything else besides juts an abstract logic….. In realty,  the Superclock completely killed Sound. Ironically the Sound did become “better” but this “betterness” was only in scale of the Kyle’s reference points. The system gained “resolution”, the resolution that Kyle’s people love to mention; but was it really resolution or it was some kind of surrogate that fulfilled the barbaric expectation of the typical audio-Morons ™?

The Superclock’s effect has nothing to do with resolution. The Superclock made the different sounds separated from Music converting Sound into a back of a porcupine. Interesting, that my attention, listening the Superclocked TL0, did not listen Music but juts jumped form a Sound to a Sound, form pitch to pitch, scanning the differences, impressed by the boosted irrelevant effectiveness, without associating the tones but with purpose of musical reasons of the musical program. It was some kind of listening of Music Lite ™… or the very same audible crap that you will be able to listen in 99.9999% of those audiophile’s listing rooms.

Also, the Superclock completely screwed up bass. I was very surprised, as everyone with whom I spoke was absolutely thrilled with the bass results they were able to get out of the Superclock. However those people, all of them, are wrong.  Superclock does jack up midbass and make it very nice and softer. So, what? The region around 40-150Hz suddenly become too prominent and the lower bass got completely lost and masked out. The midbass prominence made music too heavy and too weighty, very unbalanced. I understand why the Morons ™ out there find this effect very positive. Thy listen their speakers with undeveloped mid-bass channels (99% of them)

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=1414

and when this Superclock suddenly pushes out a huge amount of fictitious upper bass then they go crazy. I am sure if I would use the back-loaded speakers than I would lover more and better upper bass. Probably they would love to have an EQ and well, they would also love that my Superclock prevent their MF drivers do not produce 90% distortions in upper bass region….

It is was not enough I would tell you, the Superclock sound has a “double ping” imaging that most of the Morons consider as “space”. It is very minute and infinitesimal but it is VERY annoying.  I could go on trashing the sound that I got from the Superclock but what would be the point? I put the default oscillator back to TL0 and it was like a return home after many year of journey…

So, what the digital experts-tweakers are saying? As far as I concern their opinions and their expertise worth …  and in fact is…. juts a jitter of audio practice.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-25-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
George
Posts 26
Joined on 03-23-2005

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Post ID: 2132
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Lavry and dCS
I remembered reading this buried deep on the Lavry forum:

http://www.lavryengineering.com/forum_images/clocks1.pdf


I also remember reading either on the dCS site or in the Stereophile review that the Verona clock was a later addition to the stack. Originally dCS did not think an external clock was necessary but due to the experiments of some Japanese audiophiles with an external clock decided that it did improve things.
02-26-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


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Re: jitter-shmiter...

I do not know. People say a lot of words about jitter and speculate a lot about the topic. I never heard from anyone any real definition how a high level of jitter sounds in realty. I heard 4 (!!!!) complete contradictory descriptions how high level of jitter manifest itself subjectively – interesting that they all derived from the engineers whose credibility is very high (not juts the audio-tweakers who fart sound out of their audio components by changing capacitors). No one says that jitter is good but there is probably a lot of more then juts perusing a lower jitter. At least it is what I feel as when I experienced objectively-less jitter digital then it was not necessary that this digital performer better. For instance the Museatex original transport coupled with Bidat using Meitner’s C-lock synchronization mechanism that has NO MEASURABLE JITTER at all. However, this combo does sound very-very unfortunately. The top of the line Wadia, another instance, have very low jitter but those Wadia perform awfully. Certainly there are a lot of other things in digital that describe Sound but unfortunately the digital people talk only about jitter. Try to talk with them about something else, not to mention Music.  Another problem with the people who “do digital” are mostly just unable to objectively asses subjectively what the heal they do. So they build the sonic microwaves and push to the audio pubic a new marketing BS telling then of how they fought the jitter for instance…. The explanation from Lavry Forum that you linked does sound very reasonable. What is unreasonable to me that with objectively better clock in my TL0 I got that that horrible sound…

Rgs,
The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-01-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
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Re: jitter-shmiter...
The mystery of all this has not been solved. Not to worry, it will be... moments before people stop buying CDs.

clark
03-07-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Thorsten


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Re: jitter-shmiter...
Hi,

 Romy the Cat wrote:
I heard 4 (!!!!) complete contradictory descriptions how high level of jitter manifest itself subjectively – interesting that they all derived from the engineers whose credibility is very high (not juts the audio-tweakers who fart sound out of their audio components by changing capacitors).


Of course you would. Jitter is just another type of distortion where the one-dimensional "single number" thing does not work. The key is actually the spectrum.

 Romy the Cat wrote:
For instance the Museatex original transport coupled with Bidat using Meitner’s C-lock synchronization mechanism that has NO MEASURABLE JITTER at all.

 
Sorry, but the physics of making an oscillator demand, require that it has jitter and without liquid nitro cooling of the electron ics you never get low enough noise to claim "no measurable jittter".

 Romy the Cat wrote:
The explanation from Lavry Forum that you linked does sound very reasonable. What is unreasonable to me that with objectively better clock in my TL0 I got that that horrible sound…


It makes complete sense, actually.

Jitter with a fairly low frequency (for example a fairly noisy supply with a nice deal of "pink" LF noise) can make for a nice, warm sound without obviously affecting resolution etc.

The problem is that some people wish to sell "silver bullets". So they claim "clock so and so" reliably improves sound. It certainly changes the sound and Joe Public has paid 500 Greenbacks to have the clock installed "by a professional" So it must be an improvement, nah?

I have seen stuff like this - the professional actually applied a clock with a 5V output to a 3.3V logic chip that is explicitly rated for NO MORE THAN +V [3.3V] input, so everytime the clock output went above 3.3V (that is on every single clock pulse) the protection circuit of the CD chip clamped the clock, throwing noise currents into the supply line and causing a near short circuit load on the clock modulating itr's supply a lot more than intended. I'll not even mention the stuck down by dual layer sticky tape "never connected" supply, sufficient to say that the clock was best with the "never connected" supply genuinely "never connected" and the original state restored.

The machine came into my hands for "fixing" because it actually tended to lock up and refuse to play CD's!!!! The Joe had paid nearly a grand to have his player "improved". It was worse than stock, sonically and actually just did not work properly at all!!!! I ended up doing a big mod job on the player, which the guy subsequently liked a lot so that he considered even the total mod expense (mine and the earlier bad attempt with "boutique parts and modules") of nearly 2k5 well spend. Maybe I should charge more?

So, what is the lesson?

You cannot just "chuck clock at it" (unless "it" is a thief and the grandfather clock is the only weapon the law allows you to protect your home or you happen to only have a Makarov), a "clock" like so many things in audio needs to be designed into the circuit properly, understanding both clock and circuit.

Just connecting the wires a few mm out of the ideal position can throw a few 100pS (audible) jitter into the combined circuit, even if the clock itself has "0pS" Jitter (not that any has).

The LC Audio Clock at least accounts for differences in logic levels but instructions rarely account for grounding et al completely. A COMPETENT tech should be able to install such a device correctly, if he can be bothered to obtain the datasheets for the IC's in the player and to analyse the actual circuit.

Ciao T


"It is to Madame Justice that I dedicate this concerto, in view of the holiday she seems to have taken from these parts." V
03-07-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


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It sounds stupid and irrational but who cares!

T,

The phrase “"no measurable jitter” was actually the Ed Meitner quote and it was he himself who claimed that his transport and his DAC bound together via his C-clock interface have no measurable jitter. I have no reasons to disbelieve him regarding it as he would hardly make such a statement if it would not be true.  I do not know the details but I know that his DAC (Bidat) have no own clock and recognizes the tact frequency in the incoming stream. I know few other did it, never successfully, but the people who are familiar with the way “how” Meitner did it in the Bidat claim the it done very-very slick and very different. I can not comment more as I do not know “hows” and “whys”. However, regardless e correct was Meitner or not in his assessment of the C-clock jitter but I do feel that his transport was not really good transport and despite the alleged absent of jitter it did not sound satisfactory.

Regardless the rest. I clack that I used was Audiocom Superclock that most like is good clock. Powered I it from the 12.6V that I find in the CD player, perhaps it was not the best souse or perhaps it sunk voltage too much. Who know! The clock was properly installed and properly grounded (Dima supervised me and he is not just an armature audio-tweakers but the person who has no problems to design and built those clocks from scratch). The problem was that the actual horrifying sound of this thing so hugely demoralized me that I have no motivation or encouragement to do anything else with it.  The guy who sold me the clack suggested to power it form DC but I really do not know what it would take for me to do it again….

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-08-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Thorsten


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Post ID: 2170
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Re: It sounds stupid and irrational but who cares!
Hi,

 Romy the Cat wrote:
Regardless the rest. I clack that I used was Audiocom Superclock that most like is good clock.

 
It likely is. I still use an earlier version of it in my main CD-Player, actually an extremely hacked up early generation Pioneer DVD Player.

 Romy the Cat wrote:
Powered I it from the 12.6V that I find in the CD player


THAT is a pretty poor idea, as you have now FUBAR'ed (unavoidably) the grounding, probably adding a good bit of ground bounce and all.

As said, if you have a player the clock needs to be designed properly, not just "thrown in", which is what (forgive me for being blunt) you have done. Arguably, the usual clock vendors claim in exactitude that this is how their clocks work, my experience is that it is rale the case.

Ciao T


"It is to Madame Justice that I dedicate this concerto, in view of the holiday she seems to have taken from these parts." V
03-08-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


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The clock upgrades: my proposals

T,

 it is highly possible that you are correct but it was exactly the point of my in initial post - the people worship the clock upgrades but 99% of then just throw in the new clocks, or do exactly what I did. Considering that 100% of them claim that sound get “dramatically better” and considering that I observed very opposite reaction  I can  see two possibilities to explain the situation:  

1) TL0 doe not need all of this crap because it sounds perfectly fine “as is”. So far I observed the stock TL0 performs uncooperatively more interesting then any modified CD transport then I had experienced. Also, a few years back I did what usually works on any transport: updated the flimsy CEC rectifier diodes to the much better “sounding” diodes. Ironically the TL0 sound did not change, absolutely nothing changed, that was very strange as it did very nice with any other equipment I even have seen. So, the conclusion might be that despite the generally beneficial effect on other bad designed and performing transports the clock upgrade does not work out on TL0 because everything is fine in TL0 as is”.

2) People who claim the clock upgrade advantages are juts the Morons who have no idea what the REAL improvement in sound might be.

So far I have liberty to believe in both of my proposals above.

Rgs,
Romy


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Thorsten


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Re: The clock upgrades: my proposals
Hi,

 Romy the Cat wrote:
it is highly possible that you are correct but it was exactly the point of my in initial post - the people worship the clock upgrades but 99% of then just throw in the new clocks, or do exactly what I did.


And I answered purely to point out that this particular approach is a little akin to crapshooting in the dark, something which I have done in other threads....

 Romy the Cat wrote:
Considering that 100% of them claim that sound get “dramatically better” and considering that I observed very opposite reaction  I can  see two possibilities to explain the situation: 


I think #2 is the right one, a change is interpreted as improvement.

 Romy the Cat wrote:
1) TL0 doe not need all of this crap because it sounds perfectly fine “as is”.


With the following qualifications:

1) It does so in your system context.
2) It does so to your personal prejudices how music reproduction should sound.

Ciao T


"It is to Madame Justice that I dedicate this concerto, in view of the holiday she seems to have taken from these parts." V
01-14-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


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Audiocom’s Superclock free to go.
As after recent incident with my CEC I opened it ups and “fixed” the bearing I was surprised to discover in there the Audiocom’s Superclock that was sitting in there for 9 years unplugged. I just forgot it in the belly of TL0 in the past. So, if anybody want it then it is reportedly good devise and I will be happy give it to you for free is you have Cat in your home:

http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/sclock_e.html 

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  CEC TL0-X: by no means an in-depth review..  TL-0 spare parts, investment...  Didital Things  Forum     9  47486  02-26-2006
  »  New  The exaggerated boots under CEC-TL0..  The exaggerated boots under CEC-TL0...  Didital Things  Forum     0  9971  10-25-2006
  »  New  A CD player of today… 20 years after TL0..  A misdelegated rage?...  Didital Things  Forum     14  5029  12-08-2013
  »  New  Sick CEC TL0..  The Old Shake Fix...  Didital Things  Forum     2  1247  12-26-2013
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