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  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  A link to another thread....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     120  538244  07-29-2007
  »  New  Dannoy 2021 Loudspeakers..  It?...  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     18  9615  08-04-2021
  »  New  Bermuda Triangles of Audio..  Tannoy carton issues...  Playback Listening  Forum     5  3141  11-09-2021
12-29-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 558
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 161
Post ID: 26628
Reply to: 26624
One can't cheat physics...
...as anthony points out, but sometimes one can cheat the brain. You mentioned the 100uF caps, here is an interesting film one:
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/obo080-100uf-400v-obbligato-film-capacitors-p-9107.html
Never tried myself but they got a good feedback some time ago.



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
12-29-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 90
Joined on 03-15-2010

Post #: 162
Post ID: 26629
Reply to: 26625
90 Db
I have the original Dannoy's. While i still have not gotten the sdound that Romy did in his room, it is still very good. Using biamped Yamaha B2 amplifiers driven by a Trinnov 16 pre-pro, recently updated by sdoftware to 20 channels. The speakers are crossed over Linhiwirz reilly 24 dB to JL Audio FW113 Subwoofers at 60 Hz. at present. In my room which is 28 x 16 x 14 ft. i can get peaks of about 92 dB at the listening position without distortion, which is about as loud as my ears will tolerate with Bruckner.Unhappily, I am getting a weird after-note  dsitorted echo from the right speaker. I have transposed the Tannoy and ScanSpeak drivers, replaced my Tannoy with one of Romy's,the crossovers, amplifiers and even the outputs of the right and left channels of the Trinnov, and still have the distortion out of the same box. The box seems sound with no leaks. Any ideas as to possible cause? Otherwise happy with the sound. Also listened to Romy's speakers for a short time last week. He may not be happy with the sound, but to my ears it was very good, although not quite up to what he had obtained with the Dannoys I have. Don't know how or why.Bill
12-29-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,399
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 163
Post ID: 26630
Reply to: 26629
If You're Happy, It's Good Enough
Bill, I had an issue like you described with your right speaker that I FINALLY traced to a "cold" solder joint in an RCA plug, on the amp end of the right pre-to-amp IC. To my ears, the old paper drivers are very, very sensitive to their "surroundings", with audible differences from small variations of any imaginable sort. Even with a 24 dB slope you are asking "LF" from a driver that appears to be "out of gas" at 92 dB, as you are using it Romy is coming from drivers that still have 20 dB headroom at 92 dB. It's hard to compensate for a lack of driver headroom, which means in this case, one would have to "listen around it", preferably by being absorbed by other aspects of the Music.


Best regards,
Paul S


12-31-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,958
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 164
Post ID: 26638
Reply to: 26626
Why?
 rowuk wrote:
I really notice the absence of any discussion of the melody range. Tannoy tweeter and red midbass seem to be getting all of the attention. I wonder if the reds problem with loud, may be located in the melody range. The problem is something I would probably call Kolbrek and Dunker about.

Rowuk, my feeling is that you never were as wrong as anything which is going on here is strictly about Dannoy’s melody range, sort of Dannoy’s tessitura. I do not think that Tannoy tweeter even was in attrition. The mid and upper bass are but they are very much the part of the melody range, even more. The whole attention is to the 50-150 Hz region, what is kind of the very bottom of the melody range but it feels that if it is not cared on by the Red then the whole card house collapses for some reasons.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-01-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,958
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 165
Post ID: 26639
Reply to: 26638
A new year day
juts this morning.

Remedius20221.jpg



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-01-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,958
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 166
Post ID: 26640
Reply to: 26639
One more
Remedius20222.jpg



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-01-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,958
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 167
Post ID: 26641
Reply to: 26640
I do not know where I'm going to go from here...
Here is where I stay with my enigmatic Remedios project. I build inside of top box at resonator that I tuned  50-60 hertz. So basically it is under two square foot enclosure with a port tune at the bottom of resonance frequency. The port is shooting into another sealed enclosure, so instead of the gane eat dumb resonance frequency and subtract Port gain. A result I have pretty much a speaker and resonator in the same sealed enclosure. It is very effective and it feels like it's produced less damage than capacitor and coil filtration. I have more tolerant driver behavior at 50 Hertz. Still I drive red with a full range, which unfortunately have impact to its dynamic compression. As soon I begin to low pass it I am losing the sound of the whole driver. This this acoustic resonator subtraction it makes it kind of listenable all around at moderate volume. I use it as is with no mid-bas support but just with my open bottle subwoofer. It sounds fine and with each extra decibels of volume it sounds worse. It is what it is and I'm not sure that I know the way out.

It is very interesting if I visit somebody and somebody that showed me the same sound then I would call it yellow driver type of sound as dynamic restrictions are super obvious. It is absolutely remarkably tonaly but for complex and dense music it is very challenging. 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-01-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,958
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 168
Post ID: 26642
Reply to: 26641
It is so different
What is very interesting that this box loudspeakers behave kind of strange. For instance near field does not work as a effectively as with horns. With horns the closer you to the speakers, the more aggressively you are in your field the more direct sound you have and more Dynamics you have. This my current loudspeaker nearfield do not work as effective despite they are single point source. I have more than less good balance and maximum Dynamics somewhere around 9-10 ft, or even more. This is completely different presentation and I'm not saying that I do not like it but it just not what I'm used to. Ironically what absolutely distract me in the near field is the fact that reds cannot play soft. It is so different.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-04-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,958
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 169
Post ID: 26666
Reply to: 26640
Remedios at Daylight
I wish it would sound in the way it looks…

RemyDaylight.jpg




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-18-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 174
Joined on 06-12-2009

Post #: 170
Post ID: 26689
Reply to: 26642
Maybe a stupid question
I did not see if this have been covered by Romy so I have to ask.
Have you tried a larger Tannoy driver, like a 12" or 15" of the same era like your 10"? Maybe the bigger tannoy will play better for you?
01-18-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Terry Maddocks
United Kingdom
Posts 5
Joined on 04-04-2017

Post #: 171
Post ID: 26690
Reply to: 26689
Lamb dressed as mutton?
I don't know if that translates Transatlantic?.. It seems Romy fell for the perfect 10 when he came across her naturally in her rural idyll.. Now she has been moved up to the big city and wrapped in that pretty frock and boutique accoutrement?..her charms are lost.. Return that beauty to her natural state and enjoy? Is a bigger version of the current problem the solution? 


"Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music" Sergei Rachmaninoff
01-19-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,399
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 172
Post ID: 26691
Reply to: 26690
Moved to Try
Terry, while your point is well taken, and it's been put several ways by several of us since posts of the Remedios experiement began, I think Romy's idea has pretty much stayed rooted in an intra-personal experiment with how he "felt" when hearing the Dannoys, which were already aberrations of "vintage" speakers and vintage sound. The experiment seems to have been a sort of "turning things inside-out" to "develop" what he had heard into full range speakers, using a different, sort of quasi, "logic".  Can't even remember how many times I've run aground chasing similar fancies.


Best regards,
Paul S
02-02-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 558
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 173
Post ID: 26693
Reply to: 26691
Preparing to cook

Dannoy_set.jpg.jpg




Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
02-02-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,399
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 174
Post ID: 26694
Reply to: 26693
Using Which Recipe?
Jarek, where will you start? Even "using your ears" requires some sort of baseline, if to avoid the insanity of "random experiments". Enclosure volume and baffle size are variables in terms of sound, along with crossovers, and anything else you might mention. You should have quite a cookbook of your own in no time!


Best regards
Paul S
02-02-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 558
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 175
Post ID: 26695
Reply to: 26694
The original Dannoy recepie
So 3cu ft enclosure withe dims. of Bill (to be made), Tannoy stock crossover. I'm thinking how to design the x-over entry to the sealed enclosure to have the x-over outside without breaking the seal.



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
02-02-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 176
Joined on 09-01-2005

Post #: 176
Post ID: 26696
Reply to: 26695
The original recipe
includes a particular brand of cigars and a cheap but essential brandy. Can you get them in your banana republic ??
02-02-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,399
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 177
Post ID: 26697
Reply to: 26696
With or Without Sound Shaping?
Hmmm... I guess you have to start somewhere, and it did originally seem to me that the "headwaters" of the divergent projects were the "original accidental" Dannoys, with the disconnected Scanspeak 10" riding shotgun in a weirdly-connected chamber of indeterminate size. But this was obviously just a start for both Bill and Romy, and both sought to change things immediately, Romy while hardly looking back, and Bill reverting to DSP, or whatever he does to parse and shape his sound. I guess one's a leg up if 90 dB is enough, ie, the Tannoys sound good to begin with.


Paul S
02-03-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 558
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 178
Post ID: 26698
Reply to: 26696
No sound shaping
Paul, for the start just the plain Dannoy + B2 with no sound shaping. IIRC, Bill finally went back to Tannoy x-over using DSP only to cross to the woofer. The listening space is small so I recon 90dB will be more than enough even if I like listening loud.


 Wojtek wrote:
includes a particular brand of cigars and a cheap but essential brandy. Can you get them in your banana republic ??

Banana your ass. Are you trying to be funny here? Consider not posting if you have nothing to say.



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
02-03-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 90
Joined on 03-15-2010

Post #: 179
Post ID: 26699
Reply to: 26698
Latest setup
 My room, is 16 to 17 feet wide, 27 to 28 feet long by 12 to 14 feet high with all walls splayed, with a combination of absorption and diffusion on the walls. All electronics are fed electricity by three pure power units originally recommended by Romy.
The Dannoy's are the main left and right front speakers, with self built Edgar horns for the side and rear speakers, and various cone speakers for the 7 overhead channels. Each floor horn has a separate subwoofer, with two extra subwoofers for the subwoofer channel with 4 12 inch drivers each.The sources are an OPPO BDP 205 4K disc player, a self built computer for my 8 terabytes of music and movies, with the music from cd's my vinyl processed to 24/96 and about 300 15 ips analog tapes from 2nd or 3rd generation master tapes from major studios transferred to 24/48 files, and Apple, Amazon fire and Roku units for television and streaming. All of this is controlled by a Trinnov 20 channel preamp processor, which does dsp speaker and room correction, and now as the crossover for the Dannoy's. The Dannoy’s are crossed over to a pair of JL audio f113 mark 2 subwoofers at 60 HZ.
Over the past three months, following Romy's advise, I have purchase two sets of tannoy red 10 inch drivers, the best two in the Dannoy's, and two Yamaha B2 amps from Japan, which use vfets, which have the advantages of both tubes and solid state output characteristics. So the system is a combination of 30 year old speaker and amplifier technology run by the latest and greatest digital signal processing, with relativelyy inexpensive wiring, most of which high Enders would laugh at. 
Over the past three months, I have experimented with various iterations of the Dannoy's configuration, adjusting the stuffing, positioning, tightening the driver's various screws, which were loose giving a subtle distortion to the sound, but especially the various crossover options. Thes we’re using two different sets of the original tannoy crossovers, a set of new passive crossovers from England, and finally using the crossover potential of the Trinnov preamp processor. While I have not been able to obtain the sound which so enamored Romy at his place with the same speakers, using the Trinnov crossovers, I have obtained what I consider to be the best sound in my room in 40 years. Using just the DANNOY left an right channels, the sound on the best recording fills the front third of the room extending beyond, behind and in front of  the speakers with a clean and full sound stage. When I turn on the surround channels, the room fills, especially with 5.1 channel surround recordings, and when using AURO 3D processing. With the lights out, on a very few great recordings, one can really feel one has been transported to the original concert hall. 
For the first time in over 40 years of experimentation, I am actually satisfied with the sound, and am afraid to change anything which may damage what's been obtained. So kudos to Romy for guiding me to this point. Now all I have to do is figure out how I'll break down my 50 Hz. Horns filled with 500 lbs. of sand without damaging the sound. 


02-03-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,399
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 180
Post ID: 26700
Reply to: 26699
Professional Level Productions
Wow, Bill, that sounds like a lifetime of work - and no rest - to me! Hats off again if you can listen for more than 2 sessions in a row without glitches! It has been over 20 years since I gave a thought to combining sight and sound systems. But how can you fill a room like that with a sound source limited to 90 dB? I suppose you will say you get more SPL than that. So how do you do that with the Dannoy at the core? I ask because Romy has said that the "Dannoy Sound" is rooted in the relationship between the Tannoy Red and the "passive" Scanspeak. He also said he had a surplus of 50 Hz unless he ran the Dannoy more or less FR and let the Scanspeak eat the unwanted 50 Hz. Now you also speak of breaking down your 50 Hz horns, and I wonder where your 50 Hz is coming from. It seems to "make no sense", based on what's been said to date.  Does this mean your Dannoys can put out more than 90 dB @ 50 Hz?


Best regards,
Paul S
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   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  A link to another thread....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     120  538244  07-29-2007
  »  New  Dannoy 2021 Loudspeakers..  It?...  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     18  9615  08-04-2021
  »  New  Bermuda Triangles of Audio..  Tannoy carton issues...  Playback Listening  Forum     5  3141  11-09-2021
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