12-11-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Bill Kensington, NH Posts 114 Joined on 03-15-2010 Post #: 141 Post ID: 26606 Reply to: 26604 My Dannoy update Prior to three days ago, i was almost ready to give up on the Dannoy's as I couldn't get close to the sound heard at Romy's with his setup of the same speakers. Then i was able to add my newly obtained Yamaha B2 amps, and was once more inspired with two nights of pleasurable listening.  thus, Romy came over yesterday to help me voice my Dannoy's as I have added my Yamaha B2 amps, and a new crossover from England which he had recommended. So, except for the source and d/a convertor, using my JL Audio subwoofers instead of Romy's subs, and the room, the setup was similar to what it was at his place. After voicing, and getting closer to what we heard at Romy's, the DSP correction on the Trinnov pre-pro showed a 2 dB hump from 30 to 60 Hz and a 24 dB dropoff from 30 Hz. down. Also, i might add, the Trinnov graph showed a 10 dB sharp dropoff at 1100 Hz., which was not there with the original crossovers. After he left, I also changed out one of my Tannoy drivers with one of Romy's, as i was hearing a slight buzz from mine which appeared to be coming from the driver. The buzz went away. I then did a repeat DSP correction on the Trinnov for the new driver, being careful to recreate the curves which we had obtained that morning.  Last night was one of the best recreations of sound that I've had in my room, especially after turning on the Auro 3D processing adding hall space. While not quite up to what i had heard in Romy's room. probably secondary to my inferior digital sourcing, it was again enthralling to the point that i stayed up way past my normal bedtime. In addition to coming close to that magic sound heard at his place, I could also hear such things as tape hiss, vinyl rush, and increase hall atmosphere information not heard before. Don't understand why, but any increase in information is good.   i only hope now that he has received the front panels. that Romy will be able to recreate what we had in his room. Bill

12-11-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Romy the Cat Boston, MA Posts 10,052 Joined on 05-27-2004 Post #: 142 Post ID: 26607 Reply to: 26604 Very depressing indeed It is quite depressing. I got the panels install them to the speakers, mounted the drivers, staffed was there boxes and connected. I do not think I needed to do anything else. Is the sound to supposedly horrible and I am little bit puzzled. The speakers image virtually identical regardless of polarity of right and left channels. I never seen anything like this. The hope is impatient kind of ugly. But the most important that it feels that inside each sound there is some kind of microscopic bill. It is so ugly is that I am shutting down and going to sleep... "I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

12-12-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Romy the Cat Boston, MA Posts 10,052 Joined on 05-27-2004 Post #: 143 Post ID: 26608 Reply to: 26607 Okay, all mysteries are gone There is an ancient Hebrew proverb saying that if you have problems and go sleep. Last night as I connected the new assembled Remedius it was so bad that I indeed went to sleep, hugely disappointed. Had an ugly dream, wake up and immediately see why it sounded so bad. It's turned out that I have two problems. First, the original crossover that I used is my third crossover and it has burned low frequency cap. As a result that woofers log past crossover has not second order but first order, which explains ringing. The excessive high frequency from one side woofer surely responsible for imaging collapsing but there was something even more ugly. I used 2 B2 amplifiers strapped as two channels monoblock. It's turned out then one of amplifiers had approximately 2 decibel more gane. All of it made in phase and outer fhase results equally bad.  "I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

12-13-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Romy the Cat Boston, MA Posts 10,052 Joined on 05-27-2004 Post #: 144 Post ID: 26609 Reply to: 26608 Kind of disturbing... As I'm crossing Red Driver now and feeling up the space at the bottom by 15 in Vitavox I do have extremely surprising for me Dynamics. With abrapt dynamic range changed sound jumps out of Remedius like a wounded in the ass gazelle. I am not kidding it is actually even more interesting that I had this horns as it does it in a much more kinder way. Seal in here I see the greatest liability of Remedius. Even though produce sensational dynamics, kind of a typical for 93 db sensitivity but if the sound already relatively loud then it has no headroom to punch good Dynamics above. The horns handle it beautifully. This characteristics with Remedius is not a deal breaker but quite annoying to me personally. I did not try any multi amplification yet. "I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

12-13-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Paul S San Diego, California, USA Posts 2,577 Joined on 10-12-2006 Post #: 145 Post ID: 26610 Reply to: 26609 Headroom for Vintage Drivers How does the SPL/dynamic range correlate to frequency? Most of the old 10" drivers can play louder if not pushed down too far. I think as the years passed, the Tannoy had like most similar drivers a sort of "sliding scale" dynamics, and they would play louder, but it took exponentially more power to get each dB of more SPL. This started happening as SS amps came on the scene, and the makers never turned back after that, apart from some of the "boutique" drivers, like Phy, etc. I heard some earlier Tannoy monitors driven by the old (Sony) Esprit amps, and it sounded great to me, at least tor those days. Very rare and expensive amps back then... Also had a tape source, BTW... Best regards, Paul S

12-13-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Romy the Cat Boston, MA Posts 10,052 Joined on 05-27-2004 Post #: 146 Post ID: 26611 Reply to: 26609 Almost not done... It is kind of sad day and I think I will take a break for a week or two and will not be playing with my speakers. I begin to integrate the 15-in woofer with Remedius and it was not as simple as appear. I do not think that the location when I have my loudspeakers (very active at 50 hertz) I will be able to do it properly without residing to barberic means. The Dannoy, even with 100 Hertz low pass filter are very active at 50 cycles in my enclosure and with my passive radiator. I think I need to use another passive radiator with lower resonance frequency in order to have lower knee of Dannoy more smoother. In order to kill high bump at 50 cycles I was forced to open Dannoy back for a use it as an open buffel. I have virtually flat beautiful response and wonderful integration with 15-in woofer. Unfortunately it sounded extremely unpleasant.  The really do not like nacked sound of Tannoy red. And I really do not like this feeling of the open buffle. I need to reset all of it. My old Dannoy was plugged as is and it was spectacular. This new speaker gives me attitude and I need to sleep with the problem for a while... "I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

12-20-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Romy the Cat Boston, MA Posts 10,052 Joined on 05-27-2004 Post #: 147 Post ID: 26613 Reply to: 26611 I think I got it. Ah, I think I have found the secrets that I was looking for. I still do not work with 15-in woofer but still try to make my red driver sound the way how I want and I got some revelation  and the result that is very close where I would like to be. The key was in high pass crossover for red's woofer. It is very delicate balance between to let it do what it can and at the same time protected from abuse. Currently I am at 2nd order Bessel at 65 cycles. I feel to cut it at 100 cycles is to kill 80% what the red driver can do. I'm kind of very surprised that my admiration of red sound went to the bottom of the woofer. I also feel it is would be very difficult job for my vitavox too much what red does at the bottom. I think the time most likely will end the top around 70 cycles. My red cabinet reduced to approximately two cubic feet. I still have much more bass that I need, not acoustical pleasure but tonal but it is beginning to get workable. "I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

12-21-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Paul S San Diego, California, USA Posts 2,577 Joined on 10-12-2006 Post #: 148 Post ID: 26614 Reply to: 26613 Internal vs. External X/Os? Congratulations on your success! Will you say more about Red vs. Vitavox sound characteristics at your chosen X/O range? It sounds like your room is also driving your choices. Do you now get the dynamics you want using this X/O frequency? Best regards, Paul S

12-21-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree N-set Gdansk, Poland Posts 609 Joined on 01-07-2006 Post #: 149 Post ID: 26615 Reply to: 26613 Which passive radiator ...do you use? Scan Speak 25W/8565-00? Do you also feel that the reduced 2cu feet volume works better than the original 3cu? I've just acquired a pair of nice looking Reds and think of moving slowly forward. My listening space is quite small. Thanks, Jarek Cheers, Jarek STACORE

12-21-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Romy the Cat Boston, MA Posts 10,052 Joined on 05-27-2004 Post #: 150 Post ID: 26616 Reply to: 26615 More then you need.... "I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

12-24-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree N-set Gdansk, Poland Posts 609 Joined on 01-07-2006 Post #: 151 Post ID: 26617 Reply to: 26616 Magic? First of all a BIG THANK YOU Romy for taking your time to record this guide! I understand your warnings of not jumping on the project too early but I see it as a nice opportunity to experiment with compact speakers, suitable for my space. I'm taking my time, hunting Yamaha B2 in EU at the moment. I understand that the high pass should be organized like that: I understand the objective is to try to keep the XO point as low as possible, reducing the box volume to get a flat response and a certain sonic "sweet spot", right?   And Romy most importantly, have you managed to regained the original magic? I'm a bit confused, you are probably too , one time the magic seems to be back just to disappear again soon? Thank you again, Jarek  PS Happy holiday season to you and all the forumers! Cheers, Jarek STACORE

12-24-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Romy the Cat Boston, MA Posts 10,052 Joined on 05-27-2004 Post #: 152 Post ID: 26618 Reply to: 26617 Try it. You migh like it. I do not think that magic was gone anywhere, it was just hiding behind my many stupid actions. I was able recreate that magical sound but so far whatever I do to navigate it the weather's need to be sonically I am shutting magic in the butt. it is a slow process and I am learning how to deal with this red driver, I absolutely love what it’s woofer does and to the great degree as I  “working” with woofer to make it better possessed sound become better but the magic become shaded. it is slow process I will be there.   The crossover you depicted is incorrect. The Tannoy original crossover is not multi-amped and if implement what you propose then you roll off bass from your woofer but you will also drive yacht filters through the same extra capacitor. you certainly do not want to do it and I would not open to modify the original crossover. The crossover is very simple to rebuild with fixed values and there are plenty of aftermarket crossovers. I bought aftermarket, then modified and made my own, it is truly doesn't matter. still, the concept of Dannoy is Original crossover, the default read driver, loaded into sealed sub 3 cubic feet box, relaxed with the Sanspeak driver.  It is possible that the VSET amplification pay a roll in this. I do not know for sure. to make a Long story short here is my take, if you get B2 loaded to Dannoy and you do not feel that something is going on  then this project is not for you. Whatever is supposed to happen  with this combination is super palatable. at least it was for me. Try it. you might like it. I do not think that if you do not like it you will lose money as the price for these things will just go up and you always will be able to get rid of it. Still, the idea to have two commercial low-fi Products to be used with high end objective is very liberating. Happy holidays.... "I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

12-25-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree N-set Gdansk, Poland Posts 609 Joined on 01-07-2006 Post #: 153 Post ID: 26619 Reply to: 26618 Me stupid Ah ok, got it - not superposing the crossovers but modding an aftermarket one. I've located that UK gentleman you mentioned, but for the beginning I will start with the original Dannoy configuration and hear what happens. Thank you again Cheers, Jarek STACORE

12-25-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Romy the Cat Boston, MA Posts 10,052 Joined on 05-27-2004 Post #: 154 Post ID: 26620 Reply to: 26616 Not so happy Christmas... Christmas is a beautiful time for Jewish boy to play this audio project and I did last few days quite a lot of experiments. So far quite disappointing. Did a few implementations to cut off stress on the red woofer and compliment it with 15-in woofer from the bottom. Whatever I did objectively create better sound and perfect measurements, certainly decreased distortions of the red look for the bottom but anything I do touch, does kill the magic. The biggest magic amplitude I have was using small enclosure box and the dannoy configuration with no high-pass filter for woofers. It has very minuscular power handling but it's truly sound and matched. At this point I cannot scale up the same effect for higher volume. "I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

12-25-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Paul S San Diego, California, USA Posts 2,577 Joined on 10-12-2006 Post #: 155 Post ID: 26621 Reply to: 26620 Off The Wall Romy, you have said part of the Magic is the interaction between the Red and the Scanspeak "passive radiator". Could it be that reducing LF to the Red would decrease the "potency" of the intraction between the Red and current passive driver? If yes, is it possible that changing something about the passive unit, say Mms/Fs, could provide an avenue for taking a load off the Red, thereby "creating more headroom"? Of course I do not know exactly what Magic you are holding fast to, but I had good luck keeping Tone, etc. when bringing selected paper 15" up to selected paper 10", with acceptable SPL. Probably a stupid thought that the high-pass X/O for the Red may electrically alter the signal to the balance of the Red driver network... Best regards, Paul S

12-26-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree mats Chicago Posts 85 Joined on 09-18-2005 Post #: 156 Post ID: 26623 Reply to: 26620 Most sensitive Romy, could it be that the sheer beauty of the Tannoy woofer will be compromised by the insertion of any high pass filters between amp and driver?

12-27-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Romy the Cat Boston, MA Posts 10,052 Joined on 05-27-2004 Post #: 157 Post ID: 26624 Reply to: 26623 Hm...... "I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

12-27-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Paul S San Diego, California, USA Posts 2,577 Joined on 10-12-2006 Post #: 158 Post ID: 26625 Reply to: 26624 The Goose that Laid a Golden Egg Hope it isn't the case, but it sounds like you have just described "the best sound" (or, in any case, the sound you're after) from Remedios as being limited to 90 dB SPL, through your wide range of experiments with the basic configuration. I don't remember you saying this about the Dannoy. Of course, I might forget my home address...  It still "seems like" the passive radiator as you have it would be mostly eating rather than augmenting LF, and LF SPL, as well, by virtue of that.  Surely, your Red in "its native environment" plays louder than 90 dB? Best regards, Paul S

12-28-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree rowuk Germany Posts 440 Joined on 07-05-2012 Post #: 159 Post ID: 26626 Reply to: 26624 Show me your midbass and I will understand your system… I really notice the absence of any discussion of the melody range. Tannoy tweeter and red midbass seem to be getting all of the attention. I wonder if the reds problem with loud, may be located in the melody range. The problem is something I would probably call Kolbrek and Dunker about. Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

12-29-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree anthony Posts 335 Joined on 08-18-2014 Post #: 160 Post ID: 26627 Reply to: 26624 It would be a Christmas Miracle... ...if a 50yo 8" woofer could do much more than 90dB at 50Hz with anything approaching 'ease'.  Remedies in this configuration are a lot like small 2-way standmounts in that we are trying to get a lot of bass output from something small and excursion is the killer.  Even though some modern smaller drivers can sound ok at higher excursion I am yet to hear anything that does a decent job in the midbass region at anything like concert level SPL when used in a two-way and I see no reason why the Tannoy Reds would be any different. It sucks.  But short of paralleling them, I'm unable to suggest a way to get past the volume issue.  Perhaps another few driven Scanspeak woofers with an appropriate bandpass filter may get more SPL in the midbass while keeping as much as possible of the Tannoy Red resonant magic.  At least you could trial this with the Dunlavy towers.