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  »  New  Attention Sound Engineers (compression and loudness)..  Injection channel and Romy's rules...  Playback Listening  Forum     48  330108  09-09-2007
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06-04-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 61
Post ID: 4555
Reply to: 4543
The Injection Channel's Rule?
 Romy the Cat wrote:
This position is near flawless what the Red run at minus 9dB.

However, it does not compiles with the rules I am feel are in act and that I’m slowly accepting: the Injection Channels’ tweeter should NOT radiate anything in direct line of sight and should be use ONLY as an ambianicly dispersed injection.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-05-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 62
Post ID: 4556
Reply to: 4552
Tone & point of origin

Your latest post got me thinking in a sort of incomplete way about how you might locate the injection channel... If you consider tone as a harmonic of the original source, then (depending on the order of harmonic) it may in fact not be correct to attempt reducing the proximity between the point of origin for your tone generating channel and that of your main channels?

This might or might not be correct... Like I said, I am just thinking out loud here, but have you tried intentionally disassociating the Injection Channels (completely) from the Macondos (both in location as well as direction of projection)?

Regarding the diary of an Audio Psycho :

"Jessie, my site is not a collection of “audio wisdom” but rather a diary of an audio psycho..."

Yes, and I can't wait for the film! I heard that Vladimir Lamm, Michael Fremer, and even Magnetar will be making appearances... I heard John Atkinson is being consulted by the editing director... There is supposed to be quite a hot scene involving an adolescent camel... I just can't wait!

Seriously though, I do understand.

"We all and certainly I do make moves into wrong direction, or in less productive direction, not to mention the very stupid directions. It happens here, my site reflects it (like my attempts to use tweeter attenuation with moving the tweeter on the slope and a few others….)"

I need to go back and re-read your posts on the subject, as I don't recall why you concluded that it is an error to high-pass the tweeter such that the listener only perceives the lower part of the slope (if that's what you mean when you say when you write "with moving the tweeter on the slope" ... this seems a very effective means of achieving attenuation without resorting to various barbarian devices... In fact, I currently (stupidly?) have my tweeters high-passed at something like 16KHz first order.

"When I discover or realize about my wrong or not fruitful moves I always publish the follow-ups but never delete or edit the older posts."

Yes, please continue this practice ; I am certain that I am not alone when I say that it has contributed enormously to my understanding (to say nothing of the time it has saved).

"...I very much might try to use the metal suspension again when I will be driving the MF with a single-stage Milq, direct coupled or ater I try the Duddanization of the cone. The single-stage Milq should be “a cleaner electronics” and it should be advantageous...."

What do you mean by "the Duddanization of the cone"... I would guess you are referring to damping the cone via some sort of coating (saliva from your pregnant adolescent camel... You do realize she has been pregnant for a very long time...)

"...Since you already do have the S2 driver then buy from Mike one single plastic suspension cone and try it next you original cones..."

My S2s have metal diaphragms... In fact, I did not realize that it was still possible to buy the diaphragms with plastic suspension (???).

Thank you for your offer to lend me a diaphragm... It would seem best that I try to buy the diaphragms that I don't have (plastic suspension)... If I heard the plastic suspension in my system, and liked it, but then could not buy a pair, I might just become and Audio Psycho...

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
06-05-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 63
Post ID: 4557
Reply to: 4556
The Injection Channel “defused” channel

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
Your latest post got me thinking in a sort of incomplete way about how you might locate the injection channel... If you consider tone as a harmonic of the original source, then (depending on the order of harmonic) it may in fact not be correct to attempt reducing the proximity between the point of origin for your tone generating channel and that of your main channels?

This might or might not be correct... Like I said, I am just thinking out loud here, but have you tried intentionally disassociating the Injection Channels (completely) from the Macondos (both in location as well as direction of projection)?

It is exactly how I fell now and why I posted that post. I do not need the Injection Channel as a sound source but rather as source of semi-ambient noise. What I do not need is a directivity as any Red directivity introduces lobbing and all sort of other problems.

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
I need to go back and re-read your posts on the subject, as I don't recall why you concluded that it is an error to high-pass the tweeter such that the listener only perceives the lower part of the slope (if that's what you mean when you say when you write "with moving the tweeter on the slope" ... this seems a very effective means of achieving attenuation without resorting to various barbarian devices... In fact, I currently (stupidly?) have my tweeters high-passed at something like 16KHz first order.

http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=1525

http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=2790

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-05-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 64
Post ID: 4560
Reply to: 4557
That little something extra
I don't want to get off on a tangent here, but I have been using a sort of MF injection by default for some time due to  OB backwash from my DX4s between 150 and 2,400 Hz, since I leave the back of the driver open.  Yes, this is "out of phase" but it is also "blocked" by the large baffle, etc., blah, blah, blah, and it bounces around before it gets to me, anyway.

The bottom line is, it does something mostly good if the speakers are pulled well out from the walls, and it not only does not hurt imaging, it seems to help.

Another thought is the old SQ-coded "rear channels", etc., which served best if dimmed to make ambience only.

Likewise, "surround sound", which is actually great for ambience if it is done right, ie, with restraint.

Best regards,
Paul S
06-06-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 65
Post ID: 4563
Reply to: 4523
The negative consequences of Injection Channel but...
 Romy the Cat wrote:


Got today home, turned the playback on and realized the electricity got better. Not as god as it should be but much better. At lest each ambient sting instrument did not surround surrounded with a cloud of white noise and the woodwinds do not sound like coppers - is huge freaking accomplishment!!!

So, I took my time and moved around the Red tweeter, here and there, in different application… I do not know…. Whatever I did and wherever I placed it does screw up sound in one way or other. Turning channel off, setting it in geometric shadow of other horn works very nice but request to add more output to the Injection Channel that made other problems and still even if I accept them it greatly reduces the effect of the Injection.

Eventually I figured out that my initial idea to keep it in vertical plane above the Macondo was not as bad after all. It does crew up imaging is some way and does introduces some special dirt but it screws the thing up in the most tolerable way. So, I will stick with my original plan and will build a small box above Macondo and use a smaller version of Tannoy 10” Red.

Does is worth it? Well, think about it: I do perfectly recognize the negative consequences of Injection Channel but still wiling to use it.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-07-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 66
Post ID: 4569
Reply to: 4563
The Injection Channel – time to harvest

It was exactly how as I imagined - the Injection Channel worked very-very well. The electricity was good, close to wonderful. I calibrated everything and decided to spend a few hours just listening some tonally complex things. The Injection Channel made the think a freaky in a way. I know this musuc very well but the Injection Channel made it TONALLY HALLUCINOGENIC. The effect if injections truly phenomenal.

I started with Stravinsky’s L'Histoire du Soldat by Ars Nova Ensemble by Mandell (courtesy to Robert Witrak and Charles King). It is kind of is a way difficult to listen this recording. It has poltergeists in it without Injection but with Injection it kind of…become so freakish that it is not tolerable.

Then it was Rachmaninoff’s Second Concerto by Byron Janis and Minneapolis Symphony. It hardly possible to find any more interesting committed to record orchestral play of the Rach’s PC2 .  The Dorati’s orchestra nothing short of stunning and what I looks for THE tone it should not go too far from there…

Then it was Haydn’s “La Reine de France” by Chicago and Kurt Masur from 1988. Chicago in 80s? Haydn and Masur? All together?  Am I kidding? Well, listening what they do it looks like they were kidding. It is kind of “pressurized Haydn”, played with Glenn Gould’s “nervousness” and with the Van Gogh’s over-expressive colors. The Injection made the room truly seaming in the colors, wit all those grades, shadows and overtones… I disconnected the Super Milqs and listened juts the Injection Channel. It sounded like drinking consecrated syrup while being thirsty. However, at minus 9dB and supplemented with Macondo it was quite tonally wonderful.

Then I played a French-pressed Menuhin with Shankar. It is not exactly my music but I hit it anciently while was trying to play other Menuhin. However, the Sound of that “Shankuhin” was so interesting this time that I actually spent quite a time with it.

In the end I played Samson et Darcica by Bastil and Myung Chung. It is amassing what the Injection does to voices!!!

In the end, the Injection Channel is freakishly interesting thing. If someone discover a 4-5” driver that can have the same Syrupy Sound as the Red 10” then please let me know.

Rgs, The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-09-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
yoshi
Jefferson (MA), United States
Posts 69
Joined on 05-04-2005

Post #: 67
Post ID: 4578
Reply to: 4569
An impression of the injection channel
OK, Romy gave me an oppotunity to hear the system with the injection channel, so here's what I heard.

The injection channel affects the presentation in a minor and in a very major way.  Minor in context of already well accomplished Melquiades/Macondo system's dynamic and tonal capacity.  Very major in terms of the effect that the injection cnannel has to the enhanced perception of color and texture.  With the injection channel on, the characteristic color and texture of every instrumentation became better defined and expanded, making the musical message even more easily understandable, communicable and enjoyable.  This "expanded" sense of color and texture also seems to add "expanded" feel of dynamics.

The effect is most noticeable on string instruments, but other instruments receive very positive result too.  Turning the channel up makes the whole presentation like that of hyper enhanced photograph.  Taking it off makes the sound feel almost slippery in comparison.

It is difficult to describe what the injection does in its micro dynamics with my limited understanding of audio and my limited language ability (not just of English).  Probably what Romy called "bubble" would come closest.



bubble.jpg

I've heard speakers with resonance of the cabinet supposedly caliculated into the design.  Some Tannoys, some Harbeth, Audio Note, one with PHY (forgot the model).  As Romy posted before, the effect of the resonant cabinet always demonstrate itself everywhere.  You enjoy some and hate some depending on the material played and the characteristics of the resonant.  The effect of Romy's injection channel is very different.  It is more subtle yet more universally effective in a very positive way.  I assume it is the result of specifically targetted application to an already highly accomplished system, and would be very difficult to duplicate anywhere else.

Yoshi
06-09-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 68
Post ID: 4579
Reply to: 4578
Still determined to change it?
Thanks for the great "outre" description, Yoshi; about as I had supposed from Romy's posts to date, actually, but just such a simple and understandable description and picture.

So is this the original "Big 'Un" or the latest "Wedge", which we have seen outlined in red, above?

Because I am also wondering about loading down the driver in a smaller enclosure, whether/how that might affect the sound as applied.

And how great is it that this works so well as yet another front-firing driver in that mix?

That in and of itself seems so unlikely.

But the proof is always in the pudding, isn't it?

Best regards,
Paul S
06-10-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
yoshi
Jefferson (MA), United States
Posts 69
Joined on 05-04-2005

Post #: 69
Post ID: 4580
Reply to: 4579
"Big'Un"
It is the "Big'Un", high-passed at 110Hz if I remember what he said correctly.  The tweeters are back in the main driver frame with some EQ added.  I'm sure the effect I heard came from the combination of the driver and the cabinet. So how a smaller cabinets affects the result?  Beats me.

 Paul S wrote:

And how great is it that this works so well as yet another front-firing driver in that mix?

That in and of itself seems so unlikely.

But the proof is always in the pudding, isn't it?


I don't see any unlikeliness here.  What injected is not ambience artificially created by phase modulation, but "bubbles" that affects the injected frequency range somewhat evenly.

Yoshi
06-10-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 70
Post ID: 4581
Reply to: 4580
More and better anyway
By "unlikely" I mean that although I understand the "injection" concept I can hardly imagine successfully adding another front-firing driver into that complex mix.  I would hardly know where to start.  Basically, I am in awe.

No doubt there were some serious practical phase and/or cancellation issues to deal with, and Romy has obviously addressed and/or overcome these issues and/or gotten back something worth the trade-offs, and he has done it so quickly.

EQ, eh?

While that doesn't surprise me, I always think, when did he get time to do it?

I sometimes wonder if Romy ever sleeps!

I'm just now getting a measly phono stage integrated after months of effing around with it when time and energy coincide.

I might not live long enough to integrate additional speakers into my system!

Best regards,
Paul S
06-10-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 71
Post ID: 4583
Reply to: 4569
One man's junk is another man's... Uh... Injection Channel?
Romy wrote :

"If someone discover a 4-5” driver that can have the same Syrupy Sound as the Red 10” then please let me know"

I will be trying some older alnico drivers in the Mid-Bass horns (the first pair should arrive in about 2 weeks time).

I have been thinking in this direction since you started experimenting with the injection channel.

Then...

One day this week, sitting next to where I had my car parked was a large pile of rubbish. In this pile was an old home-built speaker enclosure, complete with very old full range driver (Divine Provenance?). I of course could not just leave it there... So I gently placed it in the trunk .

Removing the ugly fabric covering exposed what is obvioulsy not expert carpentry work (the whitish stuff is filler). The driver has a cast aluminum frame and a paper cone/suspension, with the magent out in front, so it pulls rather than pushes the cone (while doubling as a phase plug?). I estimate the enclosure at 1.5 to 1.75 cubic feet. It is not just a box (it would seem the builder was somewhat knowledgeable) ; it is made from 3/8 inch thick, very lightly braced plywood.

This weekend I finally listened to it... Just placed it near the right channel, and connected it to the 16Ω tap (the coil measured about 7.5Ω). I was not expecting much.

But...

This thing actually sounds pretty damn good all alone! It is colored, and yes, a bit syrupy is exactly how I would describe it ; but overall, very very non aggressive and really pleasant. Ah... Tone...

Then I tried it with the rest of the system.

While not at all implying that I have a "Romy-Quality" Injection Channel here, the effect of using this thing with no filters, positioned completely arbitrarily, is enough to suggest that (what there is of) my system can benefit from the presence of such a driver... Where and how it might be used is not certain, and I don't know which is contributing more to the listening pleasure ; driver or cabinet.

I will spend some time to find a better position, and wire in a high-pass filter.

I still have no idea who made the driver... Getting that information will require that I open the box, which is not at all made to be opened.

This event really reinforces my curiosity to try such drivers in the Mid-Bass horns. As there are plenty here in Europe, that is exactly my plan (most however are not 16Ω... don't know to what extent that might be an issue... all my other drivers are 15/16Ω... Does anyone have thoughts on this?).

jd*



How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
06-10-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 72
Post ID: 4587
Reply to: 4583
You will have Fun with it...
 jessie.dazzle wrote:
This event really reinforces my curiosity to try such drivers in the Mid-Bass horns. As there are plenty here in Europe, that is exactly my plan (most however are not 16Ω... don't know to what extent that might be an issue... all my other drivers are 15/16Ω... Does anyone have thoughts on this?).
You have a beautiful Cat, Jessie. I LOVE to look at them…

Anyhow , if you fog or multi-amping and the sensitivity of the upper-bass channel is less relevant then you hand are un-tighten and you might have fun with different drivers. Keep the thought lower and juts try drivers. Pretty much all that you need it ears, RTA and any impedance measurements tool...


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-11-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 73
Post ID: 4591
Reply to: 4578
I do not think that duplication is applicable in here.

 yoshi wrote:
  I assume it is the result of specifically targeted application to an already … and would be very difficult to duplicate anywhere else.

As usually I have difficulties with it - the duplication. This subject would go along with the subject of me do not like to provide “recommendations” for audio people.

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/LatestPosts.aspx?ThreadID=4565

The Injection Channel is not some kind of abstractive tonal Injection but the injection of the specific delta between the raw Macondo and the sound that I feel Macondo should have. There are no reasons for anyone to duplicate what I do. Different paybacks might have different sonic charisma, this owner might have different listening objectives and different tonal reference points… Consequentially those system owners, even if they embrace my ideas of Injection, might chose to use the different colorizing drivers/channels and different ways to use them.

So, I do not see that “duplication” even might be considered as an option. I disclosed what I did and if you, the readers, consider it worth attention then feel free to reinvent your own injection techniques… or would be better - invent drivers that would not need any Injection help.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-24-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 260
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #: 74
Post ID: 5927
Reply to: 4591
Commercial Oops?
Are this company thinking along the same 'Oops' lines?

http://www.layeredsound.com/index.html
11-24-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-15-2004

Post #: 75
Post ID: 5929
Reply to: 5927
What are they selling?
Panel loudspeakers? Sound processors and/or Software? Room treatments? It's one of the least informative websites I've come across. If you had more info about them, Guy, please share it with us.

Rgrds.
11-24-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 260
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #: 76
Post ID: 5930
Reply to: 5929
Vagueness
I agree its terrible, but the concept they are talking about sounds familiar and it would seem they'd be achieving some of the effect by adding in NXT panels in some way.

They invite interested parties to email them.  They don't seem to be selling anything directly. Odd, I wonder how much interest they get.
11-24-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #: 77
Post ID: 5935
Reply to: 4591
Inverted injection
Romy,

What happens when you use the injection channel with inverted polarity?
11-24-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 78
Post ID: 5937
Reply to: 5935
Injection channel with WRONG polarity in my case is not good.
 el`Ol wrote:
Romy, What happens when you use the injection channel with inverted polarity?
Unsuccessful. My Injection Channel (Tannoy 10” Red) is too with bandwidth and even at minus 10db is “talks” with HF channel of Macondo, which does not make it to sound properly. Do not forget that this overly saturated, insultingly colored, and heavy syrupy HF of the Tannoy’s Red is one of important properlyes of my Injection. Through I would not say “injection channel with inverted polarity” but rather with “injection channel with wrong polarity”, as in my care the REDs are inverted to be in right proporly (they use second order against the all-first-order Macondo)


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-24-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #: 79
Post ID: 5944
Reply to: 5937
Addition of harmonics
I wouldn´t talk about "wrong polarity", rather about "dislike of the resulting harmonic spectrum". Wonder how the result would be with phase-correct FIR filters for the RED.
11-24-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 80
Post ID: 5945
Reply to: 5944
It is nothing to do with “harmonic spectrum”
 el`Ol wrote:
I wouldn´t talk about "wrong polarity", rather about "dislike of the resulting harmonic spectrum". Wonder how the result would be with phase-correct FIR filters for the RED.
El`Ol, it is not how I see the sings and I talk about wrong polarity. The wrong polarity very easy could be registered subjectively or objectively by simple measurements and it has litle to do with "harmonic spectrum". Still, you might be on something proposing other type crossover on Reds. I might play with it sometime in future… if I define what I want from it ( BTW, the Red 10” have quite complex crossover though… but I do not need liner results in Injection Channel) Sometimes I will look into it deeper, but I would like do not spoil what I have now. It is “as is” is not bad at all… for the Injection purpose.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  The elusive “absolute tone”...  Breeze......  Playback Listening  Forum     24  227770  07-28-2005
  »  New  The “Primary Frequencies”...  Melody range and the other octaves...  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     5  75622  09-08-2005
  »  New  Don't position speakers but create Sound in room...  Listener position...  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     1  43029  06-19-2006
  »  New  Great Cello Concertos..  János Starker passed away...  Musical Discussions  Forum     21  201050  07-04-2006
  »  New  SPUnisation of Macondo: how to catch own testicals...  Who? (shades of the old "musical" vs. "a...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     1  30976  02-01-2007
  »  New  Tannoy Red 1960s: some sober reality..  The Summer Monitors?...  Audio Discussions  Forum     10  141837  02-15-2007
  »  New  The inflatable speakers dumping and no only...  Labyrinth?...  Audio Discussions  Forum     8  71989  05-30-2007
  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  A link to another thread....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     120  637947  07-29-2007
  »  New  Attention Sound Engineers (compression and loudness)..  Injection channel and Romy's rules...  Playback Listening  Forum     48  330108  09-09-2007
  »  New  The Macondo’s Upper Bass Channel: what is next?..  Görlich again...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     30  279624  10-28-2007
  »  New  Wilson Audio and the Moore's law..  Yep....  Audio News Forum     23  119849  04-26-2009
  »  New  Other Ways of getting Special Tone from a loudspeaker...  Paul S....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     8  86362  11-27-2009
  »  New  How to play Bruckner Sound in Audio...  Being a pedagogical geniuses…...  Playback Listening  Forum     16  109712  06-15-2010
  »  New  An educational Eugenie’s installation...  Some more......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     15  93577  07-15-2010
  »  New  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ..  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ...  Playback Listening  Forum     0  17309  10-08-2010
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