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  »  New  Romy The Cat's new Listening Room..  Won't be the last time he makes that trip!...  Audio Discussions  Forum     478  2779242  03-28-2010
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  2062205  07-26-2009
03-03-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 61
Post ID: 22544
Reply to: 22538
Just strategizing
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, I did not crawl to the specific attic area where it might be done. Hell, I did not close the house yet - it will be in distant May. I am just strategizing…
   
Hypothetically the problem with infinite baffle would be that drivers exposed to temperature and most of attic. With driver looking down gravity will bias suspension. So, I think the best would be to enclose drivers in large box. That would in addition minimize that house structure excitement as if something got ringy at high volumes then it will be pain in ass to find and fix it. The next think is the size. The joists are 12” or 16” apart but the drivers are 18”. It is possible to cut joists and to build two bridges but I am not sure that it would not compromise the structure of the roof. I think better bet would be to put between two joists a large 16 feet baffle of 3”-4” thick. In the baffle might host 10-12 my favorite Scan-Speak 10” drivers per channels. They to put a sarcophagus atop of the baffle, not sure if it should be sealed or juts temperature/moisture controlling enclosure.
   
The bass towel would run down to 30-40Hz in my estimation and the ceiling channels would kick in at 20Hz-25Hz in transition slope. What I wonder: if I have such a channel at ceiling at 20Hz then should I go mono? I personally based to go R and L on side ceilings but this would require to know if the playback will be along or across the room’s axis. 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-03-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
zztop7
Edmonds, WA
Posts 40
Joined on 11-02-2012

Post #: 62
Post ID: 22545
Reply to: 22544
Normal orientation
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy, the drivers would NOT be facing down in a properly built infinite baffle.  Google: infinite baffle subwoofer & then go to IMAGES to get a fast idea of installations.  It is all extremely NOT complicated.  The joists would not have to be cut, but it would be wise to double or triple them to the outside with extremely high quality joist material Glued [Sika Construction Adhesive is excellent] & Screwed.  Paul S mentioned attic ventilation.  A properly vented attic should NOT have a problem with moisture or extreme heat.  If the individual rafter bays are not vented at the soffits, then you probably have gable vents that could even be enlarged or doubled if necessary.  Inspect all contractors' work.  Another thing: most attic access is not built properly.  That would be the first thing to improve or add to.  Another thing:  once you have a solid plan of action, then you can determine if attic walk/crawl planks would be added.  zz.P.S.  you probably should have bought next door to me; that would be easier.


03-03-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 63
Post ID: 22546
Reply to: 22545
Confusion.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 zztop7 wrote:
Romy, the drivers would NOT be facing down in a properly built infinite baffle.  

You did not erectly understand what I proposed above, it is OK.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-03-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 64
Post ID: 22547
Reply to: 22546
Specifics
fiogf49gjkf0d
Typical framing would be 16" or 24" on center, with 14 1/2" or 22 1/2" between ceiling joists (or rafters). With "conventional framing" it is usually no big thing to "head out" for openings, and soffit and/or frieze vents plus ridge or near-ridge vents might substitute for gable vents, depending on specifics TBD. Shaking from ULF is another matter. I have seen a "demonstration" where a "sub-woofer" hopped around the floor despite a heavy sculpture atop it. In another, fairly recent thread I mentioned double-walled "theater" boxes. Those I referred to have a space between the walls, and they do "work" for Music. I have long had the dream of using this type of LF enclosure for my 30" drivers (I have cones and motors), if I ever actually build them. As for combining LF channels, as frequencies drop, it seems like all bets are off until one actually tries something. People have told me that an odd number is always better, but I have heard some pretty compelling "stereo" LF installations. Again, ULF is always "another matter".


Paul S
03-03-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 65
Post ID: 22548
Reply to: 22538
Driver Orientation
fiogf49gjkf0d
I just noticed the post on the "facing down drivers". Would this really be such a problem? I think there are plenty of speakers out there that use facing-down drivers that were not "specifically designed" to face down. While I have heard about this, and I have watched out for "cone sagging", I have never actually had a problem with it myself - in over 50 years. Perhaps there is "truth to it", like the "alcohol ruins vinyl" story?


Paul S
03-03-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 66
Post ID: 22549
Reply to: 22547
That all need to be though out.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul S wrote:
Shaking from ULF is another matter.
   
I think if such a woofer “ignites” shaking within the attic then all bets are off and it need to be avoided by all cost. To do “right” thing I would put pneumatic decompiled between the baffle and joists. The space between ceiling and baffle probably need to be sealed with foam. I think the Pneumatic will hold down vibration down to a fraction of hertz. How to assure Pneumatic decoupling and thermo-isolation at the same time I have no idea. That all need to be though out.



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-03-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 67
Post ID: 22550
Reply to: 22548
It nigh be a problem
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul S wrote:
I just noticed the post on the "facing down drivers". Would this really be such a problem? I think there are plenty of speakers out there that use facing-down drivers that were not "specifically designed" to face down. While I have heard about this, and I have watched out for "cone sagging", I have never actually had a problem with it myself - in over 50 years. Perhaps there is "truth to it", like the "alcohol ruins vinyl" story? 

It is not accurate. The cone sagging is not a fantasy. Small cones with rubber suspension do not sag. Large and heavy cones with paper suspension that have 50 degree  temperature difference and 50% moisture difference between front and back would sag very dramatically. Perhaps it might be a good idea to drive the woofers with minor negative output impedance  when they do not play music to balance out the gravity things.... 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-03-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 177
Joined on 06-12-2009

Post #: 68
Post ID: 22551
Reply to: 22549
Ideas
fiogf49gjkf0d
Maybe make a manifold and mount drivers vertically in push pull. No sagging, much less vibration. But I would not use fiberglass insulation behind the bass channel and remove any existing fiberglass in that area, replace with cotton/denim insulation. I this is a good idea you came up with.
romy_IB.JPG

 Romy the Cat wrote:
 Paul S wrote:
Shaking from ULF is another matter.
   
I think if such a woofer “ignites” shaking within the attic then all bets are off and it need to be avoided by all cost. To do “right” thing I would put pneumatic decompiled between the baffle and joists. The space between ceiling and baffle probably need to be sealed with foam. I think the Pneumatic will hold down vibration down to a fraction of hertz. How to assure Pneumatic decoupling and thermo-isolation at the same time I have no idea. That all need to be though out.
[/quote
03-03-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 141
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #: 69
Post ID: 22552
Reply to: 22551
Opposing woofers
fiogf49gjkf0d
About vibration, there is this technology championed by AR9 a few years back and now seems to be everywhere. Opposing woofers, the force cancelling technology says the movement of one driver gets cancelled by the movement of the other and no vibrations (or less) are created.
There is a nice video explanation of the concept here though it is not hard to grasp really.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBmnfpGg7uw
03-03-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 70
Post ID: 22553
Reply to: 22552
Cabinet Size for "Subs"
fiogf49gjkf0d
I like the idea of "opposing drivers", and I like the (proven) notion that extraneous motion will "self-cancel". But aren't these things typically in "smaller" cabinets"? Also, how well do they do "mid-bass"?

Paul S


03-03-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 438
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 71
Post ID: 22554
Reply to: 22538
Blow hard
fiogf49gjkf0d
Here is an excellent attic solution that will even allow for output to 1 Hz:
www.rotarywoofer.com

No problems with the suspension sag either!
 Romy the Cat wrote:
I was wondering: if I lose my midbass and will use for now my bass town to do midbass then how can I introduce lower octave channel of I want to make a room civilized? For instance if I go do 2-4 Aura drivers on transition slope then I will end up with 2 LF sections of the size a large subzero refrigerator each. I do not want to have it in my listening room. 
 
I got an idea today. My Cathedral ceiling it truncated atop and has a profile like on the picture. There is a small attic atop (black on the picture), much smaller then depicted. So, I wonder if I put in there a few Aura driver in infinite baffle configuration. I think the ceiling is 13-14’ high, approximately the same distance I plane to be from the spacers, so it would become time-aligned. I presume that the quality of construction is OK in there and if not then I can put a fat and solid baffle to mound drivers. Did anybody load the heavy woofers into a regular building structure? It does sound as an interesting idea…

ULFatAttic.jpg

The Cat



Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
03-03-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
scooter
Posts 161
Joined on 07-17-2008

Post #: 72
Post ID: 22555
Reply to: 22554
Phoenix Gold arises from the ashes
fiogf49gjkf0d
I remember reading about a turbine subwoofer 15 years ago called the Phoenix Gold Cyclone or Typhoon. That was for kids in cars.

Tom Danley the inventor had some comments:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/55122-pg-cyclone-non-cone-subdriver.html#post616391

At one time, I thought it would be fun to pick one off ebay for $100 for testing but there were so many DIY repair threads on the internet that I knew trying it for fun meant fixing it first, so I passed.

Here are some images

http://mobileaudioforum.com/forum/showthread.php?3218-Phoenix-Gold-Cyclone-BNIB-Never-Mounted
03-03-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 298
Joined on 06-02-2004

Post #: 73
Post ID: 22556
Reply to: 22554
Couple of things
fiogf49gjkf0d
Depending, somewhat, on the town you're moving into, you'll need to pull a construction permit.

But whether or not you must, it might be a good idea to hire a licensed engineer to okay the mods. That's what I had to do to create my large room out of two smaller. (Bearing walls and all that.)
03-15-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 74
Post ID: 22570
Reply to: 22459
So many thing I need to take under consideration in new listening room...
fiogf49gjkf0d

ThomasRidesMacondo.jpg




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-15-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 177
Joined on 06-12-2009

Post #: 75
Post ID: 22571
Reply to: 22570
That's not a problem :)
fiogf49gjkf0d
I would be most concerned with having the turntable where kids can reach it. This has proven to be very problematic! Son climbing speakers -- not a problem.

05-11-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 76
Post ID: 22616
Reply to: 22459
A LF solution for a new room
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, I kind of begin to think what kind LF solution I might have in the new room. The ULF might be fun to load on the ceiling in the way how I described above. For the midbass I most likely will go for the line-arrays with my beloved Scan Speak 25W/8565-00 drivers. I quote love the sound of the drivers. They are not ideally perfect but they are exceptionally agreeable with me and drive by idle DSET they do just fine. My concern is that 4 drivers per channel mostly will not yield the effetely to load the larger room and they will not stretch to the celling to form a fool array. So, I think it might be beneficial to extend the Danlavy TSW-IV woofer tower with extra 4 drivers.  Well, thinking toward to this direction I asked myself why not to rebuild my own woofer tower and to make it erectly suitable for my location with 12 drivers per channel.  I will have a tremendous gains in sensitivity, imagine and dramatically reduce exertion. This reminds my leading idea at this moment. 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-14-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 77
Post ID: 22617
Reply to: 22616
Another midbass?!!?
fiogf49gjkf0d
We are closing our new house in 2 weeks and while packing and preparing to move I am thinking about the configuration of my new playback installation. I am debating with myself about going with sub 100Hz woofer tower as I described above vs. introduction of midbass channels. As I took my Vitavox 15 incher out of my horns I got horny again from the way how their diaphragms response and I again consider to let those drivers to show themselves off. So, an idea of a new midbass channel begin to drill my mind. I certainly do not consider NOW to go for new midbass channel.  We kind of expecting more kids soon, so the grandiose projects with time-aliened 40Hz horns in new hour will be on hold for a while. However, having a number of Vitavox 15 drivers I wonder why no to build a cheap and simple sealed array with let say 3-4 driver per side. Those driver are not exactly best for direct radiation but it will be many of them and I need juts one upperbass octave! I am kind of thinking about it more and more. I have a limited width for my installation in new room. The Macondo along with equipment stand shall fit into 20 feet. With second 15" line array it might be a bit tight but I still think it is doable. I probably will order a cheap car-audio enclosure of 1.2 cub feet for the driver to try how it will sound in sealed direct radiator. I do not have a lot of experience to get upperbass from sealed topology. Whatever I did with sealed boxed was open bottom lower bass. Still, if the Vitavox array will behave nice in sealed box it might be an interesting solution.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-16-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 177
Joined on 06-12-2009

Post #: 78
Post ID: 22618
Reply to: 22617
Another option to consider
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,
I understand your situation as a result of the move. It is a good thing because a system that is out of proportion with not work in a family environment and ultimately you will be battling yourself between sound and family priorities and practicality (I think). Maybe smart downsizing is a wiser approach in this situation. I propose a different solution. Single driver compound corner horn with phase compensation.
corner compound horn.JPG

here's a link to speaker that is in the direction I am thinking:
http://www.axhornloudspeakers.com/axjet-speakers/

Now imagine it in the corner so that the front mouth is transitioning into room walls, floor and ceiling. Also, the rear horn is opening into the floor and ceiling gaps where the mouth opening stops short and creates large enough areas to make the rear horn mouth proper size. The phase plug is a idea from my current Funktion One horns. It helps to widen the sweet spot and also shapes the mouth opening so that it is a true exponential or tractrix (or whatever) contour rather than just a big waveguide. 
Since the back radiation will screw up the phase response I wonder if it's possible to compensate with a passive all pass filter or good DSP and FIR filter to adjust the phase response at the transition between front and rear horns?
05-17-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
scooter
Posts 161
Joined on 07-17-2008

Post #: 79
Post ID: 22619
Reply to: 22618
Room comfort upgrades
fiogf49gjkf0d
I found 2 recent room upgrades made life more comfortable:

1. We recently installed a "cork" floor. Acoustically it is quite pleasing, as it is finished with some semi-gloss sealant but also quite sound absorbent naturally (irregular texture/soft surface, it is a 3 layer laminate, we added a layer of optional foam above the subfloor). It looks nice, is soft to walk on, and was cheap inexpensive. It somehow blends with the hardwood of adjacent rooms. The designer promoted it as an "environmentally" friendly laminate; it is not super durable so replacement say every 7 years (?) is not that "eco".

2. Air purifier. I purchased for spring allergies. Real bonus was 90% less dust on gear. Also can remove allergens and clean the air. For options, this sick guy seems to be independent given the harshness of some of his reviews and tips for creating DIY filters:

http://www.air-purifier-power.com/top-10-air-purifiers.html

I have a sharp plasmacluster and it works fine and is quiet on the low setting. The carbon filters seem to smell sweet after a few months; replacing them with a fresh DIY carbon filter solves that smell.


05-19-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 80
Post ID: 22620
Reply to: 22616
Small-blood Macondo 2016?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Last week I took the Vitavox drivers from the Midbass horns.  This week most likely I will take the compression chambers from the installed horns. If I even redo the midbass horns then to have the custom-fit compression chambers will be 30% of the job done. I will dump them in the new house attic, let them to collect dust in there. 
 
I am thinking a lot about the fate of Macondo in new home. For sure the notion of Macondo is not compromise and the each single line of the Macondo axiom is still there but I do not think that now I would complement Macondo with horn-loaded midbass. So, below is the changes that I will most likely to explore. The Injection channel will have much smaller enclosure. It is high passed at 110Hz there is no need to have such a large box in there. A pair of Vitavox 15 inchers will go to 3 cub box – I think I will be able to get 40-50 Hz out of them. The LF arrays will be complimented with  extra 2 (or perhaps  4) drivers. How, how to drive the Vitavox is the question. The Milq’s LF channels might or might not be optimum amps as Milq has not optimum output transformer for Vitavox twins. 

So, I would need to figure all out….


Macondo_2016.png



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Romy The Cat's new Listening Room..  Won't be the last time he makes that trip!...  Audio Discussions  Forum     478  2779242  03-28-2010
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  2062205  07-26-2009
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