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01-05-2005 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 450
Reply to: 450
Digital recorders: what the "big boys" use?

I wonder what the “big people” who work for the companies that commercially manufacture some good sounding CDs (it happens occasionally) use as the CD recorders?

It happens with me 1-2 times per year when I’m trying to records something on CD and I constantly get disappointed with the results. I used a few dedicated “unloaded” PC boxes with good CR-writers (including external), the top of the lines of Mackies, Fostexes, Denons, HHBs, Tascams and Alesis and all of them did not perform well. I heard that MAC’s CRW are better... but I never tried…

Anyhow, what the “big boys” use for recording? I can’t believe that the DG guys who did “The Originals”, the EMI guys who did “Great Recording of Century”, the guys who did the “Testaments” or many other labels humiliate themselves with CDR junk that I have tried. Perhaps, they handle and master data in DAT format but still soon on later it got recorded to CD disk. How do they it?

Thanks,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-05-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-15-2004

Post #: 2
Post ID: 454
Reply to: 450
ADC or "burner"?
I know that many of them use ADC based on Mac computers to use with Protools, while other rely on DAT's (Tascam is very well considered) built-in ADCs. Perhaps some use external ADCs from Meitner or dCS. Once you have a "decent" PCM file to transfer to the CD-R, the burner and the media they use I don't know, but I don't think is something very diferent from a Plextor burner and TDK or Maxell discs.
01-06-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Max Shatsky
Posts 19
Joined on 01-03-2005

Post #: 3
Post ID: 463
Reply to: 450
Re: Digital recorders: what the "big boys" use?
Hi Romy,

Have you ever heard any burned CD-R that wasn't disappointing on YOUR
transport?  My impression is that all this "CD-R talk" is very dependent on
particular CD transport used for playing. Certainly there are other factors like CD-R
quality, optimal burning speed (which isn't necessary x1 or x2), external
burners etc., but if the transport isn't optimized to play CD-R's then the
result will be poor. I guess that CD-Players like Meridians may be more
optimized for CD-R's, though I'm not sure.

Max.
01-06-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 4
Post ID: 464
Reply to: 463
More on the CDR misery.

Max, actually I have opposite experience and I detected that a quality of burned CD dose not depend from CD transport it was played on. I mean certainly it is different from transport to transport but the burned CD has own let call it “misery delta” and this delta is more or less the same across all transports.

Certainly I did experimented with various burning speed and various blank disks.  The results are different but still they are below any accepted expectation. Also, talking about the transports: the CD burners are horrible transports, very horrible. For instance when I rip a CD cuts to the HD of that foolish Masterlink I never use the Masterlink transport but the TL0’s external digital stream - the result in quality is staggering!  The Masterlink’s HD copy sound more or less OK. However, as soon I write it to a disk (for instance I like the top of the line Apogee disks), even without rendering, then sound instantly goes to toilet. Some CD burners do better or worth job (for instance top of the line HHB or the cheapest Denons do better but still they all operate way far from a level that I would consider acceptable.

Rgs,
The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-06-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-15-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 465
Reply to: 464
Same impressions here
You and I must be of the very few that find CD-R copied discs sounding worse than an original CD, most people find no differences or better sound in copied discs.

I have a Marantz Pro recorder (631 I believe) and as a transport is pure crap, not even the Bidat can mend that. As a copier is clearly worse than the computer, but to make some vinyl track copies is better than any arrangement I've tried using my PC. I keep it to copy the vinyls that some friends lend me to be able to keep that wonderful music that is not available anymore.

Editing and copying CD's with the computer is quite tricky. I use the EAC (using very exigent settings to assure accuracy of reading) to extract, and Nero to arrange the disc and burn it. I use 8x speed and a Plextor burner. Media is usually "cheap" CD's but I avoid colored ones (blue ones are the worst sounding) and I prefer the golden or greeny ones. BenQ works fine. If I need to copy a whole disc, then the best program to do so is Clone CD. With this program there are differences, but smaller than using Nero, Adaptec or other programs.

The only other burner that comes close to the Plextor's quality was a Teac I had about 3 years ago, but this unit wasn't able to copy some "protected" discs. The Plextor is. All other burners by Sony, Philips, LG, etc don't make as good copies as the Plextor. Perhaps it has to do with the power applied to the laser beam while burning the CD-R.

Regards.
01-06-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Max Shatsky
Posts 19
Joined on 01-03-2005

Post #: 6
Post ID: 466
Reply to: 464
Re: More on the CDR misery.
Let me understand what is the problem. You say that a copied disk to Masterlink
HD sounds OK, right?  So, why do you believe that CD-R is capable to store and
reproduce music at the level of original CD or Masterlink HD?  Do you have at
least one positive experience with CD-R? I mean, if CDR physical layer is not
stable enough for reader to recover the original signal then there is nothing
to expect from this format. CDR is definitely ok for DATA since CD-DATA stores
significantly more redundant information for error recovery. I'm not sure that
CD-AUDIO stores any redundant data at all to prevent errors.

I personally do not bother too much with CDRs, just using quality disks with
EAC->Nero with AudioMaster on Yamaha 3200. Disk quality is determined by my
friend who occasionally has time to make careful comparison of different
labels available on the market.

Max.
01-06-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 7
Post ID: 467
Reply to: 466
More digital bitching....

Well, I did hear some very positive result when people did not make CDs form glass copies (as the “big people” do) but actually burned them in the “regular” CD writers. How they did it I have no idea.  Also, I have no idea what hardware/software they used.  I only know that whatever I have seen and tried were not good.

About playing it from HD… it is hard to say. It is defiantly way better then recorded to CD but still the direct output of TL0 sounds more interesting. However, I would be completely content if I would be able to get out of a CD burner the result that I get by placing music directly from HD.

BTW, playing directly from HD is always produce OK result. For instance I hate SACD, not that I hate the format but I hate ANY SACD result that I ever heard (and I believe that I head anything out there). However, there was one, and the only one experience with SACD that delivered a phenomenal result. It was in 1999 or something like this when Maitner only introduced SACD and the first Sony players weren’t widely available. I remember I stopped by in juts opened Mark Levinson store in NY and they played for me few cuts. The music was recorded directly to the HD and they played it form the same HD via a prototype Maitner pro DSD converter. THAT was good, very-very good!!! Even if I mentally subtract from that sound the crappy music that they recorded, the horrible ML speaker and the very ordinary ML electronics then still clearly the DSD performed very wonderfully. After that, the CD players and transports became available and the DSD when to toilet. Or perhaps the consumer version of the DSD converted screw the picture up.... I really do not know, and do not care. What I defiantly know, that I never since then heard SACD performing even remotely competitive to a properly implemented 16-bit PCM.

Rgs,
The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-06-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-15-2004

Post #: 8
Post ID: 468
Reply to: 467
About SACD....
I suppose you've listened to EMM Labs, dCS and all that "top" SACD converters. I wonder if the problem is not as much in the transports or DSD/A converters as in the way they produce the recordings and make the SACD discs. It would be interesting knowing how it sounds when the DSD stream is into a HD and then it's fed to a proficient DSD DAC.

I don't like SACD either, I've not tried any of the "big boys" but all the players I've had here or listened at shops were disappointing. In fact I found DVD-A more promising, but not in the same league as PCM 16/44 when well done.

Cheers,

Antonio
01-06-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 9
Post ID: 469
Reply to: 468
SACD = “Patricia Barber Syndrome”
Antonio,

I really do not know. I did not humiliate myself with further experiments toward the SACD due to a complete luck of interest or needs. The DSD idea is unquestionably very positive but the way in which it implemented is very revolting. I personally have no SACDs on my shelves and consider all that all that SACD nervousness is just a “Patricia Barber Syndrome”

The cAT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-06-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-15-2004

Post #: 10
Post ID: 470
Reply to: 469
Ooopss I enjoy PB
Ha ha ha, but I understand what you mean. I don't have any interest on SACD or DVD-A, I don't feel I need more resolution than the LP or CD are giving me, nor any single channel more than the two and sometimes one I usually listen to. But curiosity for new technologies is something I can't help having. I only hope the CD and vinyl remain available time enough.

Cheers,

ANT
01-06-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 11
Post ID: 472
Reply to: 470
Abu Ghraib of Audio
Yes, and particularly what enjoy with Patricia Barber (which is perfectly fine artist, BTW) that then when I go to the homes of an ordinary American audiophile then they have $90.000 worth of recommends Stereophile components and no more then entire collection of 6 CDs … 4 of which are unavoidably … Patricia Barber. I particularly enjoy the moment when they sing me songs about “bass on the left, the piano on the right and the voice in the middle”. I call those listeners and thier listening room as “Abu Ghraib of Audio”. Interesting that Patricia Barber’s engineers record the voice and music in opposite absolute phases… I think it does sound magnetizing for a “seasonal audiophile”…

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-06-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-15-2004

Post #: 12
Post ID: 473
Reply to: 472
It was that!!
I've always found on her studio recordings (not as much on the live ones) something strange to PB's voice. Thanks for the info. I've noticed that effect in other artist's recordings, but probably due to the fact that they did it worse, sometimes much worse like having a full channel in opposite phase to the other :-P

AJ
01-06-2005 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Chirag
New York
Posts 32
Joined on 06-13-2004

Post #: 13
Post ID: 480
Reply to: 472
And to think my *first*
Patty Barber experience was in the Kitty's lair!  Yep, I was a PB virgin until that very moment :-)
03-15-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #: 14
Post ID: 6912
Reply to: 450
Not that wild stuff
The BIS used to print their equipment on their CD booklets. The one I like most in terms of sound quality uses this recorder:
http://cgi.ebay.de/Technics-Profi-DAT-Recorder-SV-260_W0QQitemZ320227893694QQihZ011QQcategoryZ96269QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Let´s see for what money it goes away. Probably 50€ or so.
Page 1 of 1 (14 items) Select Pages: 
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  How to record FM broadcasts...  Left to center...  Off Air Audio Forum     125  732669  11-04-2005
  »  New  A littlie D-War: Bidat vs. Lavry Gold..  RE: the "New" DAC...  Didital Things  Forum     13  129421  12-18-2005
  »  New  Metaxas-Wolfson ADC with Sound Devices SD744T..  Misery or misunderstanding ? ...  Didital Things  Forum     2  21766  02-11-2007
  »  New  Analogue to digital converter comparison..  And the price of this is?...  Didital Things  Forum     6  49097  03-16-2007
  »  New  The best practices for DAW Data Storage...  The Time Stamps Directories Synchronizer...  Didital Things  Forum     9  48870  09-24-2007
  »  New  Recording options: Pacific Microsonics vs. Lavry Gold...  Pacific Microsonics vs. Lavry Gold in D/A mode....  Didital Things  Forum     24  174265  09-27-2007
  »  New  The commercial music servers...  Touch screen remote...  Didital Things  Forum     36  218968  01-10-2008
  »  New  Reference Recordings “digital master” and Berkeley's ne..  The Berkeley Audio DAC’s processor....  Didital Things  Forum     13  129265  01-17-2008
  »  New  New sample 24/96 downloads from HDTT..  Or shall I say will you bat?...  Didital Things  Forum     20  91739  02-10-2008
  »  New  A lucidly implemented digital?..  A lucidly implemented digital?...  Didital Things  Forum     0  12382  11-18-2008
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