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   Home » Horn-Loaded Speakers» ... again on GOTO Unit drivers... (109 posts, 6 pages)
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  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  A link to another thread....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     120  511095  07-29-2007
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  »  New  8" Goto Woofer for 60Hz Horn..  It's not a Goto 8in driver...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  75915  11-03-2008
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  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  1845040  07-26-2009
  »  New  Why GOTO do not care about time-alignment...  Sarcasm isn't my cup of tea...  Audio News Forum     7  52377  09-22-2009
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08-27-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 61
Post ID: 11564
Reply to: 11563
... following from previous post...
fiogf49gjkf0d
... my only experience with newer, expensive Berillium diaphragm Goto drivers, has been a mix between "Wow, I'm listening to a +35K euros speakers system" and... "Gosh, music do not sound this way"... this of course was due to some crossovers tuning I wasn't able to do in my host house AND the T-amps feeding the speakers, quite lacking in harmonics and bass shy...

This to say... from the cheapest to the most expensive, the "house sound" is there, so, IMO, isn't necessarily true that "the most expensive is the best".

Sure Berillium and super-duper fluxes gave the feeling of a top-notch product, the best money can buy... nonetheless, my ears say it's also true a "cheap Goto system" is something to be heard, without overweighting words like "top, cost, flux, weight).
 
As a plus, my skin-feeling - i.e. having purchsed something which was The Real Thing, drivers and horns from the mid-seventies, where Sejia Goto himself was painstackingly building these products by hand in his workshop... well, cheap or expensive... these are, IMO and for my tastes, the drivers to own;-)

Ah! 


"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
08-27-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,916
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 62
Post ID: 11567
Reply to: 11564
Goto, ALE, YL, Condo, Onken etc…
fiogf49gjkf0d

My definition of “Japanese sound” is different than yours and I do not feel that Japanese sound is characterized by “tilted up high frequencies character”.

http://www.RomyTheCat.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=1959

I think if you are accustom to “tilted up high frequencies character” from Japanese products the then it is an indication to me that you use driver with too high magnetic force in gap, that from my point of view the new  GOTO are most likely might be. It makes too fast harmonic roll out of notes to their pitches and makes the sound to have “tilted up high frequencies character”. This begs is VERY simple to model with electromagnet driver – I did it many times. Juts for sake of experiment you might want to complicate it a bit by loading the output stages of your amps twice harder. You might do it is “quick and dirty way” by shorting your GOTO drivers with 16R-8R resistor and it will give you an indication if the direction is right.

Anyhow, thanks for your toughs sharing about GOTO.  I will give a ride to the SG-37FRP when is become available to me and will see how it goes. Frankly my primary interests are not GOTO but the midbass ALE compression drivers; however SG-37FRP might be a good parley to look into what those “exotic” Japanese drivers are all about.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-27-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 63
Post ID: 11569
Reply to: 11567
Japan audio scene
fiogf49gjkf0d
If time (Endo-san and mine...) will allow, I should also visit Endo Labs of ALE fame... sure I'll have a listen to a 4 ways system in Tokyo area with bass driver and concrete horn.

Re. "tilted high frequencies"... no, Roman, it's not me experiencing such a drawback.

... but it's something, time to time, I read about japanese audio, as reported by detractors... if those people listened or not to a properly tuned multi-ways horn system is something to be proved and debated...

I personally NEVER heard unmusical/unbalanced gears, among "classic" transductors: YL-Yoshimura Labs, ALE, Goto, Kanno, Eltus, Coral... 

The building and project quality of the above is quite high... maybe a biased word-of-mouth played against Japanese quality audio for years, who knows... and it's always the listener tuning ability and sensibility to optimize the final result, don't you? 

Anyway: good luck with your SG-37FRP's experiments to come. At least they come with as a cheap entry ticket;-)  


"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
08-27-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 64
Post ID: 11570
Reply to: 11569
A tastes bridge (WJAAS...)
fiogf49gjkf0d
 twogoodears wrote:

I personally NEVER heard unmusical/unbalanced gears, among "classic" transductors: YL-Yoshimura Labs, ALE, Goto, Kanno, Eltus, Coral... 


... aehm: I meant "transducers"... BUT wrote again to add that among the scarce literature available on Goto, they wrote they used, in late '60s/early '70s shakuachi and bees buzzing and crickets singing recordings to tune a given driver and horn and speaker system.

Then, I read the interesting Western vs. Eastern listening habits and tastes link you gave and Yoshi's posts... thanks for sharing.

I found myself very near to Japanese music/audio lovers... in fact when I share with (web) pen-pals about the birds singing which I hear on this or that recording, they - like myself - do not blame for poor attention to music, composer, etc., but as a cherished and sought-after "plus", adding realism and "being there" during the recording session...

Come to mind the joyful swallows singing during a Quartetto Italiano Webern's on Philips and many, many, many more are bright examples of this "cherry on the cake" I so much enjoy.

Japanese's (and mine) is not necessarily "craziness"...  


"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
08-27-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,916
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 65
Post ID: 11571
Reply to: 11570
The “exotic” Japanese drivers.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, I reacted about your commentaries about the “tilted up high frequencies character”, nothing less. I personally do not feel that such a problem ever exist. I do read your blog sometimes and I do feel the Japanese influence. Anyhow, the SG-37FRP might be a good inexpensive entry ticket to see “what those straight people are raving about”. I am a bit not comfortable with pricing rational of those “exotic” Japanese drivers. It is not that they are too expensive but I am accustomed that expense has a reference to any type rational – would it be performance or cost.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-30-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,916
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 66
Post ID: 11592
Reply to: 11563
"The drivers from home listening", period or multiple dots?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 twogoodears wrote:
Horns drivers from home listening are, must be differently built from industrial/P.A. drivers, period. 

Yes and no. Yes, they might be, or even must be different, but can you elaborate on this idea in context of GOTO drivers for instance? What do you feel shall be different in driver, design-wise or design-wise that would make it more home- listening driver? Also, I do agree with the premise but I think the actual solution is more a marketing propaganda then the actual meaningful differences. 

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-31-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 67
Post ID: 11597
Reply to: 11592
Dot, dot, dot... maybe's more honest...
fiogf49gjkf0d
I agree the "period" closing needs more words, Roman.
The P.A. horns/drivers were mounted in stadiums, convention centers, maxonic halls, cinemas, theaters, everywhere was needed a broad music or speech dispersion, trouble free operation and high S.P.L.

All the "VINTAGE" movement was possibly born when people who run cinemas and theaters and stadiums audio systems overhauling, instead of dumping these huge, dusty drivers and ugly cork/bitumen tamed horns tried them at home.

Walt Bender of Audiomart and HiFi Town fame was among the first who listed the worthy vintage, ex-industrial gears having some audio appeal for the loft owner, cool Newyorker... still a penny-pincher affaire, no hypes, salon price tags, back in the hey days...

Japanese audio scene and the French, Jean Hiraga's leaded connection, where also important in establishing a collector guide... WE, Altec, JBL became mainstream U.S.A. vintage... only by chance RCA, Stephens', University and the like remained out of the list.

Same happened for UK's audio: Haden Boardman and Nick Beasley were among the promoters of Quad, Goodmans, Garrard and Leak... Vitavox' and Wharfedale (and more...) remained, luckly, quite underground and well kept secrets, with price-tags accordingly down-earth.

Japanese audio collectors were buying old Marantz and MacIntosh, as an Old World Treasures of the Past... giving to West the integrated amps we all knew back in the '70s.

Back to the (ex) P.A. drivers and horns... they were cheap, only drawback was being HUGE... a friend of mine was paid - yes: he didn't paid, but was paid as mover - for picking up from a Rome ol' cinema, a dusty but nicely preserved WE 15-A horn and WE 555 with Tungar P.S.U. and WE 43 amp... the above goodies are now worth Y 50.000.000+ or so in Akibahara district in Tokyo!

They're classic, well built, no-frills industrial design built for trouble-free operation for decades...

... but not high fidelity gears!

So: what's high fidelity? I'll be not able to explain in full, BUT my personal ideal of "high fidelity" is: detail, dimensionality, emotion,  transparency and trueness in music and sound reproduction in the average room through ANY gear will please your ears and eyes for technical and/or aesthetic features, BUT always having the music as a finality. Something very personal, anyway...

In my experience, the (ex-)industrial drivers, sounded "right" when compared with mid-fi small to mid-sized enclosures, like the top quality single speakers like Goodmans' Axiom 80 or Siemens' KL-405 and KL-307 or Vitavox DU-120 sounded much more open, detailed, lifelike, transparent and pleasant. They sure lacked low bass or bat-like highs, but sounded true to music.

To go a step ahead, enter the Goto, ALE, YL, Audio Tekne (ALE again...) - they still are capable of the subtleties, the airy, transparent, life-like beauty of the above (and others sought after wide-band speakers), WITH the dispersion in room, untiring like only acoustic music does and authority only horns can give.

It's absolutely possible to obtain great results with Altec, JBL, RCA and the like... but the level of naturalness and detail reacheable with those japanese, ultra-light diaphragm and fluxes is more in the realm of the magnifying lenses - like going at a concert without your eyeglasses.

You hear music, of course, but you're not listening to the concert in full, at 100 percent of your capabilities.

... thus the name I fondly gave to my system (like for your Macondo): music in Gotorama... sounds silly, but so true to reality.

The above only an attempt to elaborate on the matter... no "period", this time... the "dot, dot, dot" is still open, of course.    


"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
08-31-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,916
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 68
Post ID: 11605
Reply to: 11597
Let to be rational about “home driver" vs. “pro drivers”.
fiogf49gjkf0d

I would discard the first part of your post. It is it truly irrelevant what Germans, French, Japanese or Brits were buying and what particular brand and in what time they consider as “fashionable”. It is know that Ebay or Akibahara popularity has absolutely not impact on me as I know/knew quite a number of Morons who slogan is the “Akibahara Sound Forever”. I do not like the mind of those people and they NEVER demonstrated any sound that I find interning for myself. Those people just do not present a challenge to my interests.

Your attempt to define high-fidelity as a next level of “naturalness and detail reachable” is not something that I would agree but we are not talking now what is high-fidelity is. The subject was a conceptual difference between pro-audio drivers (which most of them are) and drivers that were made for home use (presumably the Goto, ALE, YL, etc…). You said that drivers for home listening must be differently built from PA drivers. I might agree and I would like to expend on it. From what you said I presume that you feel that Japanese Goto, ALE, YL and ALE are different from let say Japanese TOA or Fostex, not to mention many western pro audio drivers. I proposed to define what the difference is.

You might feel that the difference is in sound with all of those: “subtleties, the airy, transparent, life-like beauty”. It might be so, but let to define why the home use drivers are so supposedly different.

The diaphragms in there are not ultra-light as you reports, in fact they are comparable to the pro drivers. The entire design of the drivers is not different then pro drivers. Japanese very seldom invent the things, they are very good for adoption and expending and it is exactly what Japanese home drivers did. The phase plugs, the magnetic structures, the suspensions of the cones, the wiring of the voice coils, and the configuration of polls of the gaps are no different with “home use” drivers then we can see with pro audio drivers. Even the amount of flux in the “home use drivers” and “pro audio drivers” is the same – there are some Goto that run 1.8T and there are pro audio driver that run 2.4T. The “dispersion in room” that you mentioned is also is very much not the area of “home drivers” advantage.

So, what I am trying to bring up is some king of rational that would give some base why the “home use driver” might be different then “pro use”. There are only two areas what I think might have SOME lucidness: the type of core and type of magnets. The type of magnates is controversial. The pro drivers in most of the cases do not give dams want magnets they use – as long then get marked amount of magnetic density in gap they are happy.  I presume that home-drivers are peakier and they might use the very specific magnets that they select by sonic considerations. I said it is controversial because nowadays the magnet production is very much globalised and everyone but the very much same magnets.  Put in this way: with the volumes that “home drivers” consume the have no chose but to use magnets from the same barrel as anybody else.

The core material for the magnetic structure might be the only area where I feel the “home drivers” might go crazy. They might use some permendurian type or whatever “exotic” it might be. The material of those things does affect sound.  BTW, it is not so expensive stuff. The “pro drivers” never used it generally and they just do not need it. If the JBL, Selenium, BMS or Pyle would decide to do cut their core with some king of cobalt and nickel steal then it would make their drivers to cost $25 more. In the case of the home-oriented Goto, ALE, YL and ALE it get transferred into very deferent price tags but the artificially inflated price for those things is a whole another subject.

So, I do not feel that there is a true “home use” and “pro use” compression drivers. There are certainly the difference, HUGE difference, between the “home objectives” and “pro objectives”. There are also a HUGE difference in the design decisions that people make when they built PA system and home systems. I think it is to much-much less degree would relate to “home drivers” and “PA drivers”. I think it would be more like the sound of “regulators tubes” vs. the tubes that were “designed for Sound”. Come on! Let be real about it. NO ONE ever design this thing in pro audio worlds for sound. the folks who design for home use might have luxury to care about Sound – the is good. However, then we need to define what they were trying to accomplish.  The good people from GOTO looks like “design for home”, that is good, but the very same people insist that time aliment of the drivers have no difference. Dose this disquiet the GOTO designers then from the people who have “higher objectives”. Any single GOTO system that I have seen online pile up the channels in absolute ransomed fashion – is it the way how the “home drivers” shell be used?  Any single ALE system that I have seen online used digital crossover and the owners report that there no problem with it. Do I need to consider that digital crossover is a mandatory attribute of the “home drivers” as well?

The point that am trying to make is that the subject of the “home use“ driver vs. the “pro use drivers” is a bit complicated and the thing are not so clear as you, Stefano, is trying to present it to yourself.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-31-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,367
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 69
Post ID: 11606
Reply to: 11605
Volume
fiogf49gjkf0d
One basic requirement of "Pro" speakers is that they play LOUD, preferably day after day (night after night), without blowing up.  Most pro gear is designed with volume (power handling) and durability as the first considerations, and the "sound man" is generally left to fend for himself in order to adapt the pro gear to a given use or venue.  While home hi-fi dweebs might futz with the gear itself, many professional soundmen use "outboard" equipment to create and/or shape the sound the way they want it, within the constraints that time and circumstance may afford.

A friend who tours the country with different headliners prides himself on his abilitity to cobble togetner a working operation under any real-world "impossible" conditions.  Needless to say, he has only a nominal interest in home hi-fi and the last time I heard "music" playing at his house it sounded awful.  Still, he is in high demand by touring bands because of his special expertise in meeting "pro" requirements with "pro" gear.

Basically, Sound per se never factored much in "pro" speakers.  I started out with "theater" A7 500s that had their hi-fi butts kicked by the original Advents, IMO, apart from dynamics, of course (except that even here I could offerr some ideas about "dynamics".

Best regards,
Paul S
08-31-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
MINGSU
Posts 28
Joined on 11-21-2007

Post #: 70
Post ID: 11607
Reply to: 11605
Time alignment and GOTO
fiogf49gjkf0d

Romy!

Just to be cleared, GOTO has never claimed that time alignment is not important nor to suggest their customer that time alignment is not important.  In a home listening environment, it is very difficult to do time alignment with a 3 or 4 way horn system.  Yes.  if one has the room and space, one should consider it but if one does not have the room and space, one should not go crazy about the time alignment issue.  Most GOTO system that you have seen fall into the "not have enough room and space" home listening environment.  If one can do time alignment, by all means, should do it.  But, if that is not practical and limited by room and space, don't get too carry away and worry about time alignment, afterall, that is not the only factor to determine and define a good sound system.

Again, I suggest that you send your SG37 driver to GOTO to make sure the drivers are in good condition before your evaluation.  It is not free but well worth the cost.

Ming

08-31-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,916
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 71
Post ID: 11608
Reply to: 11606
The lower power handling
fiogf49gjkf0d
Paul,

Ok, I would agree with this. The power handling is the factor that I forgot to mention. The Japanese home drivers are rated for a few watts vs. the pro driver are rated for hundreds watts.  BTW, some of older pro drivers (like my Vitavox) were also rated for a few watts.

What however, we need to pay attention is not a power rating but how much advance the low power rating would give to the home use drivers. With just a few watts of power rating the drivers that meant for “home use” might use way voice coils tunes of much smaller gauge, use rectangular wire and to wind it tighten, make the lighter voice coils or even the voice coils coil made by this foil. This would minimize the inertia of the movable part of the driver and make the driver to be more reactive to lower signals. This is certainly an advantage.

What I would wordy in this approach is about the satiation what somebody by $20K for a pair of 5W drivers and decide to use it in his/her 1000sq feet room.  It is not out of the realm of imposable. So would it mean that 300B amp at full power will overheat or burn up the $20K driver? Pay attrition we know NOTHING about the stats of the driver like GOTO and how tolerant they are for power. I wish this subject had some exposure as well.

Anyhow, the lower power handling for the home drives and consequential of lower moving mass is the factor.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-31-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,916
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 72
Post ID: 11609
Reply to: 11607
One more time about GOTO and time-alignment.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Ming,

what you say is not exactly accurate. I have MANY desiccations about it with number Goto users in past and if I am not mistaken then even some kind GOTO official from past event argued this point with me. He insisted that Goto require 4th order crossover and no time alignment. I was explaining to him the he was an idiot but he did stand resolute.  According to him with Goto drivers that time alignment is not so critical and it was like this years after years the Goto position. Frankly it was one of the major position why always did not take them seriously.

What even more interesting is that you are the US distributor, a very much official person and you make the comment like this: “If one has the room and space, one should consider it but if one does not have the room and space, one should not go crazy about the time alignment issue.” It has absolutely nothing to do with room and space and unless people use bass horns the time alignment it never a problem. The problem is when people go into very deep observations about the particulars of a given compression driver sound but are blind to very major problems that come from time-misalignment.

To have a sense of sight is possible absolutely mandatory requirements for the people who want to be truck drivers. To have a sense of hearing is possible absolutely mandatory requirements for the people who want to play musicians. To be athletically fit is mandatory requirement for a play in sport at certain professional level. A person might not be any of it but them probably the person is not qualified to claim any advanced driving techniques, of record sport results. The very same is with drivers. The time-alignment is absolutely mandatory and not obligatory condition. If the condition is not enforced ten all bets are off. If a person does not get it then there is absolutely nothing to talk with him about the sound if his horns drivers and he is clueless.

Funny but I assure you that most of your Goto customers are in fact clueless and if you with them to more enjoy your Goto drivers then you must to start very aggressive and very firm demand for time alignment. Not time-aligned must not be heard – big fat and very confident period!

BTW, one of the reasons why I am not so strong with trying your SG37 is because to incorporating it in Macondo in the time-aligned fashion is a bit tricky and of cause would never agree to try if without the time-alignment.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-31-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
MINGSU
Posts 28
Joined on 11-21-2007

Post #: 73
Post ID: 11611
Reply to: 11609
What is perfectly time aligned?
fiogf49gjkf0d

Romy!

Put on an engineer hat!

Time-aligned is an impossible task from my point of view.  How can one perfectly time align different drivers?  Align to what precision? mm, inch, cm or ft?  5%, 10%, 30% time align? Align to the tip of the cone or middle of the cone or the end of the cone?  Or to the beginnng of the throat entrance or the end of phase plug? 

In my view, if one can do it and arrange all drivers on a same vertical plane, it is better but if not, one should not worry too much about time align and should just enjoy.

Again!  Since I start working with GOTO 4 years ago, they have never recommended to use anyhting more than 2nd order - always 1st order with active crossover and 2nd order with passive crossover.

Ming

08-31-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,916
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 74
Post ID: 11612
Reply to: 11611
Ok, doctor! :-)
fiogf49gjkf0d
 MINGSU wrote:
Time-aligned is an impossible task from my point of view.  How can one perfectly time align different drivers?  Align to what precision? mm, inch, cm or ft?  5%, 10%, 30% time align? Align to the tip of the cone or middle of the cone or the end of the cone?  Or to the beginnng of the throat entrance or the end of phase plug? 

Ming, I would not even debate it as it is so funny. The scare part in all of it that this level of understanding and dealing with the time-alignment problems is not your personal idea but most likely the vision that was given to you buy the manufacturer you represent. If it so, then I would VERY scare even to tough anything those guys do today. It would be as it you are a dentist and suggest me to pull my teeth in order to free up space for growing a third kindly…

 MINGSU wrote:
In my view, if one can do it and arrange all drivers on a same vertical plane, it is better but if not, one should not worry too much about time align and should just enjoy.

 
I have the same views. If one can’t measure the VTF then put a large break atop of your cartridge and just enjoy. :-)

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-31-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Dominik
Poland
Posts 48
Joined on 09-14-2008

Post #: 75
Post ID: 11613
Reply to: 11612
Picture of proper Time-aligned
fiogf49gjkf0d
dynamics.jpg

MINGSU,

"Time-aligned is an impossible task from my point of view.  How can one perfectly time align different drivers?  Align to what precision? mm, inch, cm or ft?  5%, 10%, 30% time align? Align to the tip of the cone or middle of the cone or the end of the cone?  Or to the beginnng of the throat entrance or the end of phase plug?  "


You are really Goto dealer????



Dominik


08-31-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
MINGSU
Posts 28
Joined on 11-21-2007

Post #: 76
Post ID: 11614
Reply to: 11613
GOTO
fiogf49gjkf0d
Dominik,

Yes.

Very funny picture!

Ming

http://www.goto-unit.com
09-01-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Kcct82
Beijing, China
Posts 23
Joined on 09-08-2008

Post #: 77
Post ID: 11618
Reply to: 11613
Stop harassing the dude...
fiogf49gjkf0d

Romy & Dominik,

Mingsu is a DEALER... more or less about business and money, did you really expect him to be a horn expert? 

From Jeffrey Jackson:

"he has listened to Goto's advice quite a bit.. they have very strong thoughts on how to do things... some you will find humorous, others you will agree with... they beleive that electronics don't really matter.. the driver is the primary importance above all others... to them, it is silly to buy expensive electronics if you do not have double drivers on all your horns.. (I do not believe in this, at all) .. they also do not believe in time alignment... I have heard the amazing transformation that time alignment brings, both with digital correction and with physical alignment... Goto says the drivers can just go anywhere.. their philosophy is that a low distortion loudspeaker is the most important thing... "


Word of advice for Mingsu, you're gonna have a hard time selling Goto products to these dudes with that kind of comments... perhaps diyaudio.com is a better place, good luck with business.

Keith

09-01-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 78
Post ID: 11619
Reply to: 11605
... dot, dot, dot...
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

The point that am trying to make is that the subject of the “home use“ driver vs. the “pro use drivers” is a bit complicated and the thing are not so clear as you, Stefano, is trying to present it to yourself.



That's why I agree in leaving the topic open, WELL open, to more opinion... I tried - as a user, not an engineer or a tech-head - to explain the reason of the naturality, etc. - maybe all has been written and much more to come are the causes... would be easier to say they're good quality drivers with (possibly too much) high price-tags... 

Prices are maybe due to small digits production in a small workshop, instead of mass products for the industry.

I also find VERY interesting the debating of time-alignment, which proved in my system and experience, to be quite tricky and way out to be 100%  settled in my room.

I mean: I agree with Mingsu questions about "what" phisical area must be aligned, as every inch +/- gives sometimes different results... my time alignment personal adventure is quite recent.

Last october, when in Munchen at Dietmar Hampel's place, I clearly heard for the very first time the merits of a time alignment - also if obtained with a digital Sony active x-over with time-delay - the switchinhg on/off between the aligned/unaligned ways was VERY audible and always better in time aligned form.

I preferred for my system the phisical dislocation to align drivers throats... several "experts" says the time alignement is the horn mouth.

I find the throats alignments, also with Goto's drivers;-))), much better, also in a relatively near field (my ears are about 2,8 meters from throats, at a 110° angle on a 5,30 meter room-side).

The above only my 5 cents, of course...

... dot, dot, dot...  

  


"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
09-01-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
twogoodears


Italy
Posts 116
Joined on 03-26-2008

Post #: 79
Post ID: 11621
Reply to: 11612
A brick... a VTF's friend?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:


If one can’t measure the VTF then put a large break atop of your cartridge and just enjoy. :-)



... you mean this, don't you?

http://www.psychologytoday.com/files/u107/Brick.jpg


"Use your ears as your eyes" - Gertrude Stein

Stefano
09-01-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,916
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 80
Post ID: 11623
Reply to: 11621
How to read the Cat’s posts
fiogf49gjkf0d
 twogoodears wrote:


... you mean this, don't you?


Yes, somthing like this.

http://www.romythecat.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=3823

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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