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  »  New  Problems with horns: upper bass ..  Must it be about loading?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     109  936929  03-25-2005
  »  New  Barn Conversion - James' Project..  The vintage vs. contemporary compression driver....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     28  288479  02-04-2007
  »  New  About bass horns by Johan Dreyer..  There are lowest bass horns and there are not lowest b...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  73042  02-11-2008
  »  New  La Grande Castine..  Good luck...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     57  424055  09-07-2009
  »  New  The most promising “best” commercial speaker..  Cessaro new Loudspeaker...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     191  1393884  12-06-2006
  »  New  European Triode Festival 2009 – good, bad and ugly...  Schröder, Walker and a weekend with Bernie...  Audio Discussions  Forum     10  22536  12-14-2009
  »  New  French Horns/drivers shootout (oops! S2 came last)..  My bad...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     7  52508  12-07-2010
  »  New  Where the Horns Light is shining from?..  Where the Horns Light is shining from?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     0  7696  12-09-2010
09-07-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,675
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 21
Post ID: 11685
Reply to: 11682
It is much better.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, it unquestionably much better, still I am afraid that they are trying to spread one ass across two chairs; I will talk about it in the end. The change from what was before was around the frame and upperbass horn. It looks like the guys are trying to shape it as some kind commercial speaker.

The new frame is very elegant with a minor question: it is an optical illusion or the MF horn is tilted toward to bottom? If the MF and HF horn are parallel in this frame then the frame is great.

The Midbass horn is interesting. They moved from the huge-throat duplex horn to angular-entry twin-throat. I personally think that I you are so insist to use the double drivers in throat then this type of entry is preferable as it makes the cross-section of the composite throat sampler. The minor reentry effect and the time misalignment in front chamber is controversial and I do not think anybody ever looked in it with respect to sound. It is was mine I would play with triangular phase plug in this throat but it just a speculation and I have no idea what it would lead. The key would be to get a more or less proper impulse response from this type of horn…

The horn is still obviously too short to feet my evangelistic shoe but then do something different. The keep the back of the drivers wide open, letting then to ask in semi-dipole configuration. There are of course many problems with this solution as itself-contradictory arrangement but it all would depend from what kind drivers they are. With selection of very proper driver and with VERY smart high-passing of this thing it might work.  So. it needed to be heard in order to evaluate what kind upper bass and lower MF the new “La Grande Castine“ are able to. Setting this configuration to go deeper into midbass will screw up lower MF and vice versa. It would be interesting to hear from Musique-Concrete folks what they think about it and if they from their point of view were able to deal with the problem.

Also, the “La Grande Castine“ is what I call the “MF Horn Island”, it is not a self-contained system as it is very much closed-bottom system (ails they use woofers with very low resonance,  deep into midbass and then harvest all problems at lower MF and upperbass). So, what the complimentary LF section the “La Grande Castine“ use? If this speaker uses an extra help from bass section then he type and the crossover type in this section shall say a lot about the capacity of the “MF Horn Island”. So, far I did not see any mention of LF section. If they are not planning to use a separate LF section then… they need to coals working on this speaker.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-07-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tuga


Posts 174
Joined on 12-26-2007

Post #: 22
Post ID: 11687
Reply to: 11685
Musique Concrete goes commercial
fiogf49gjkf0d
Musique Concrete stopped selling horns a while ago and are now manufacturers of commercial horn loudspeakers.
As for the "Grande Castine", I think that the MF section is in fact the MF/LF section and the frame is indeed curved.

Cheers,
Ric


"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira Pascoaes
09-07-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,675
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 23
Post ID: 11689
Reply to: 11687
I do not like it then...
fiogf49gjkf0d
 tuga wrote:
As for the "Grande Castine", I think that the MF section is in fact the MF/LF section and the frame is indeed curved.

If this speaker does not use any complimentary LF section then they drive the woofers at let say 40Hz. At this frequency this horn will act as a pipe choked with bass. I might predict that this speaker will have very poor upperbass and lover MF, sort of Avant-garde Duo. I do think that if then use not a horn under the bottom but box with pair of good and right drivers then they would have more interesting result. At least it would be more less controversial design from my perspective.

THe Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-08-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Marc HENRY
Posts 6
Joined on 12-19-2007

Post #: 24
Post ID: 11695
Reply to: 11685
Bass and infra bass
fiogf49gjkf0d
hi all,
thanks for your interest !
yes the frame is curved, HF and MF are //
yes there is a phase plug in the bass horn. This cover 80-300Hz.
there is a separate infra-bass section, covering 20-80Hz.
images of the bass phase plug and the infra-bass section are not available yet...

crossover is full passive, firt order. all driver are time aligned for a listening position at a distance of 3 meters and over.
much more details comming soon on our website...

Best regards,
Marco ---
http://musique-concrete.com/MC/Galerie.html#17
09-08-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tuga


Posts 174
Joined on 12-26-2007

Post #: 25
Post ID: 11696
Reply to: 11695
4 way Castine
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Marc HENRY wrote:
hi all,
thanks for your interest !
yes the frame is curved, HF and MF are //
yes there is a phase plug in the bass horn. This cover 80-300Hz.
there is a separate infra-bass section, covering 20-80Hz.
images of the bass phase plug and the infra-bass section are not available yet...

crossover is full passive, firt order. all driver are time aligned for a listening position at a distance of 3 meters and over.
much more details comming soon on our website...

Best regards,
Marco ---
http://musique-concrete.com/MC/Galerie.html#17


Salut Marco,

And thanks for the clarification.
This makes you speaker a far more attractive proposal that has come a long way from the ETF prototype.

Best,
Ric


"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira Pascoaes
09-08-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,675
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 26
Post ID: 11697
Reply to: 11695
The second "best" commercial horn speaker?
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Marc HENRY wrote:
hi all,
thanks for your interest !
yes the frame is curved, HF and MF are //
yes there is a phase plug in the bass horn. This cover 80-300Hz.
there is a separate infra-bass section, covering 20-80Hz.
images of the bass phase plug and the infra-bass section are not available yet...

crossover is full passive, firt order. all driver are time aligned for a listening position at a distance of 3 meters and over.
much more details comming soon on our website...

Best regards,
Marco ---
http://musique-concrete.com/MC/Galerie.html#17

Well, Marc, what you said addressed all my concerns. The HF and MF are parallel, the upperbass is not. I think it might be OK in this case as your upperbass is dipole that would greatly mask out any phase anomalies. The upperbass is very narrow banded with 80-300Hz. That is a good range foe this topology of horn. I presume it it has a resonance somewhere around 80Hz and with a proper selection of driver it might work very well. The presence of the separate sub 80Hz section imidetaly brings this system from the state of stupid wishful thinking into a realm of very lucid design, my congratulations.

Looking at what you have done I think that the only “slippery” moment in this speaker is the high knee of the upperbass and lover knee of MF. If your MF driver goes down to 300Hz then it is very “pushy” I would say. That would require a good 120Hz -140Hz horn but your MF horn strike me as 170Hz-200Hz horn. I do not know you but let presume that since you did not make other mistakes then you know what you do and what you hear. Then you would not load into a 200Hz Le Cléac’h horn 300Hz compression driver with first order. Well, you might go for it if you need it and it you upperbass cannot go up enough but in your case, having the shallow upperbass horn and a phase plug in the upperbass, you have no necessity to kill the upperbass at 300Hz.  So, if to presuming that you know what you hear and that your speaker sounds good then most likely here is what happen in them. You most likely do not let the MF god all the way down to 300Hz. You might highpass the upperbass at 300Hz electrically with your “crossover is full passive, first order” but in reality a single coil would not stop those drivers. At 300Hz the inductance of those midbass woofers become co-measurable with the inductance of the filter coil, so you crossover point slips all the way up. I might presume that the actual -3dB from upperbass you have at 700-1000Hz that would mask out your lower knee of your MF channel.  So, the octave where your MF and upperbass work together you use as a virtual Macondo’s “Fundamental Channel”. This is might take how your speaker work if it sounds balanced.

Ok, to conclude the things. It looks like from what it presented now the speaker is done with no mistakes and even I can’t find a rational to bitch about them. I nominate this “La Grande Castine” as the second “The most promising ‘best’ commercial horn speaker” right after the Cessaro Gamma. So, how the La Grande Castine sounds? Since there are no strategic mistakes in the design then the speaker will sound as good as the drivers are able to.  I have no idea what drivers La Grande Castine use and it looks as then went into extend to hide the drivers identity. If the drivers are very good then the Castine might sound very promising.

When the information about the bass section become available then, please, post a note.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-08-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
KLegind
Posts 34
Joined on 04-03-2008

Post #: 27
Post ID: 11699
Reply to: 11695
HF channel - BMS 4540
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hello Marc Henry,

I am curious as to why you picked the 4540 driver for HF. I have no experience with this unit but it is interesting since the design claims to be of the "ring-radiator" type. This topology was invented by Steen Duelund for use in regular non-hornloaded tweeters, but BMS claims its a ring-radiator so it might be BS or it might not be...

The ring-radiator that I have heard was from Duelunds own hand and did not sound like a regular dome tweeter, but more akin to a good compression driver.
Now, what do you think about the Sound of this driver? And what does it offer that other drivers dont?

Sincerely
Kris

PS. I hope this question is not off topic.
09-08-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,675
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 28
Post ID: 11700
Reply to: 11699
Come on, French people! You can do it!
fiogf49gjkf0d
I think the most interning would be to learn what kind MF and upperbass drivers were used, particularly the MF. I hope they are not the German BMS drivers as it would be a major turn off. It looks like 2” throat, would it be possible that French folks made their own compression driver? I think it time for them to do it. Everyone trued to make them, even the fucked up in horns Russians did compression driver (by Lomo and Kinup).  How come that French never did compression driver? I think it is time to them to join the club…. With all French devotion to patriotism and since of cultural superiority I think it would be fun to hear a first French compression driver.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-08-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Markus
Posts 68
Joined on 03-07-2007

Post #: 29
Post ID: 11701
Reply to: 11699
Jumping to conclusions?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 KLegind wrote:
Hello Marc Henry,

I am curious as to why you picked the 4540 driver for HF.


The 4540 was used in the prototype described at the beginning of this thread. It is unknown whether the present version of the Grande Castine uses the same driver complement.
09-08-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
be
Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts 86
Joined on 02-11-2007

Post #: 30
Post ID: 11702
Reply to: 11699
Ring radiators
fiogf49gjkf0d
"This topology was invented by Steen Duelund"
Ah-hm, ring radiators where not invented or even re-invented by the Steen Duelund dude, just copied.
JBL used the priciple 40 years prior to that in: 2402-2403-2404-2405  and Fostex have been using them also: T90 T825 T925 T500.
The BMS is indeed a ring radiator.

Cheers
09-09-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Marc HENRY
Posts 6
Joined on 12-19-2007

Post #: 31
Post ID: 11707
Reply to: 11699
Drivers, bass horn, other
fiogf49gjkf0d
wow.
thanks for comments.
La Grande Castine will not be as expensive as Cessaro Gamma.

i am sorry but i cannot answer to all questions, for several reasons you can understand.
we have tested many drivers since the early prototype of La Grande Castine. BMS were the very first.
i am a bit surprised that anybody here recognize the brand name of the bass horn speakers :-)

As Romy mentionned, the electric cutoff of the MF is close to the acoustical cutoff of the horn. this is not so audible around 300Hz. i never do such a thing in the 600-3000Hz area !
even if the crossover is 6db everywhere, i confirm that the effective cutoff of the bass horn is really 300Hz. there is no MF pollution comming out of this horn. I am proud of this phase plug :-D

Best regards,
Marco ---
09-09-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
KLegind
Posts 34
Joined on 04-03-2008

Post #: 32
Post ID: 11708
Reply to: 11702
Ring-radiator
fiogf49gjkf0d
 be wrote:
"This topology was invented by Steen Duelund"
Ah-hm, ring radiators where not invented or even re-invented by the Steen Duelund dude, just copied.
JBL used the priciple 40 years prior to that in: 2402-2403-2404-2405  and Fostex have been using them also: T90 T825 T925 T500.
The BMS is indeed a ring radiator.

Cheers


The Vifa and Scanspeak ring-radiators are different. THey are a variation of dome tweeters working through controlled breakup - I was under the impression that the BMS 4540 was a novel design.

I would still like to know about its "sound".
09-09-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,675
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 33
Post ID: 11709
Reply to: 11707
The midbass merge and about the new environment.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Marc HENRY wrote:
La Grande Castine will not be as expensive as Cessaro Gamma.

i am sorry but i cannot answer to all questions, for several reasons you can understand.
we have tested many drivers since the early prototype of La Grande Castine. BMS were the very first.
i am a bit surprised that anybody here recognize the brand name of the bass horn speakers :-)

As Romy mentionned, the electric cutoff of the MF is close to the acoustical cutoff of the horn. this is not so audible around 300Hz. i never do such a thing in the 600-3000Hz area !
even if the crossover is 6db everywhere, i confirm that the effective cutoff of the bass horn is really 300Hz. there is no MF pollution comming out of this horn. I am proud of this phase plug :-D

Marco, price is not a mach of a subject at this site. If read around then you will see that quite a few horns systems or ideas were passing thought my attention but very few met any more or less favoriteable acceptance.

As now, there are 2 things that I would mention in context of your speakers.

First: do not be afraid to run your upperbass higher then 600Hz. I do not know how about the 3000Hz but the higher out of upperbass is not a pollution, even though your upperbass has angled axis with all time-alignment consequences. Even if your MF compression driver can handle confidently 300Hz and to produce interesting sonic result while doing it (that I doubt) then it does not mean that your upperbass mast stop at 600Hz. Let presume that you use woofers with copper caps that would control the inductance change (to a degree), even then there is no need to keep the 600Hz firm. (BTW, I do have an idea how you control low pass since you are proud of this phase plug – my compliments and I will go there for the reasons you proposed to understand.) Still, you might feel that in your situation the low-pass of your upperbass sound fine but it might be very much not the case in a slightly different room. An ability of the MF and upperbass to work an octave of a half octave together is a very good tool to control the weight of fundamentals. It would depend from the room and the listening distance. So, if I were you I would tap the coil that roll of your upperbass with 3-6 taps. Letting uses to set electric crossover point at let say 600Hz, 800Hz or 1000Hz. In your specific case (dipole and axis) you shall not worry about the timing problem that would arrive in other cases.

Second: As I understand you are moving from DIY environment to making a Hi-Fi commercial speaker. Respecting the time and money you have devoted to the venture I would like to give you a world of advice. The DIY and High-End commercial trades are very different animals. In DIY you mostly face extremely ignorant, low demand, cronyism driver audio-lumpenproletariat that would kiss you in ass during your diarrhea. The business  “success” in DIY environment is about to be mutually friendly, promise internal loyalty and telling to each idiot you face that s/he is “special”. The High-End commercial trade is very different. As in DIY trade the sound of your speaker is irrelevant. What is relevant would be the amount and the quality of personal you sight up to promote your products. Under the “quality of personal” I mean that you need to built a network of the dirtiest scams around the word, to collect the creatures who would fuck own mother for 3 easy payments of $19.95. Like it or not but those people, not you and not your speaker, will be something that assures the success of your business venture. I wish you sign-on to your projects the dirtiest and the most audio-retarded inhabitants of audio. Then your new acoustic system might get some momentum in this “hobby”

I wish you good luck with your new project. Please, when you finish uploading to your site all public information about the “La Grande Castine” then past a note at my site.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-09-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
RonyWeissman
Lyon, France
Posts 138
Joined on 05-29-2004

Post #: 34
Post ID: 11710
Reply to: 11707
(near) Paris Audition?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hello Marco,Nice to see you posting at romy's site.  I would very much like to come listen to your speakers when you are ready for auditions.  I am very happy with my 320hz Musique concrete horns, and am still sorry you didn't have the time to build the midbass horns for me, though now I realize why!  Good luck with the La Grande Castine, R WeissmanLyon, France
09-12-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Markus
Posts 68
Joined on 03-07-2007

Post #: 35
Post ID: 11714
Reply to: 11710
Enquiring minds want to know
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hello Rony,

have you detailed your set-up somewhere on this site? I'd very much like to know what you're using with Marco's horns.
09-13-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
RonyWeissman
Lyon, France
Posts 138
Joined on 05-29-2004

Post #: 36
Post ID: 11724
Reply to: 11714
Enquiring minds would be bored
fiogf49gjkf0d
HI Markus,Thanks for your interest but it is off-topic in this thread, and of no real interest.  My system, other than Marco's 320hz horns with Vitavox S2s, is completely commercial and mostly just slapped together.  Regards,R Weissman
09-14-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Markus
Posts 68
Joined on 03-07-2007

Post #: 37
Post ID: 11731
Reply to: 11724
That's fine.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Sorry, didn't mean to be inquisitive.
10-12-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,675
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 38
Post ID: 11955
Reply to: 11709
The write up about La Grande Castine
fiogf49gjkf0d

The 6moons put up some pastures and some details. Interesting that Marc refused to comment about the specifics of the driver and this use but the 6moons has published all information.

http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/grandecastine/1.html

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-12-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
RonyWeissman
Lyon, France
Posts 138
Joined on 05-29-2004

Post #: 39
Post ID: 11957
Reply to: 11955
Grande castine website
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi romy,Have you had a look at the website recently (site address above in marco's mail), they have very detailed discussion of midbass horn with photos of phase-plug etc. unfortunately it may be only in french ...R Weissman
07-01-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,675
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 40
Post ID: 13901
Reply to: 6141
Srajan Ebayn, Sarah Palin and the “great Ronald Regan”.
fiogf49gjkf0d

As an update of his former article

http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/grandecastine/1.html

Srajan Ebayn of the 6moomsposted the second part:

http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/grandecastine/2.html

It looks like the Marco new revision of his speaks features new drivers, some kind of Titanium midrange and Cyrille Audio 15” cone woofers. I do not know – perhaps it is some kind of mental disorder in my head but I truly did not get what Srajan Ebayn was saying. It was some kind of cacophony of familiar buzz was but they do not form sentences in my head.  To me Srajan more and more sounds like Sarah Palin….

Anyhow, I need to let he Srajan Ebayn go – there is not need to trauma traumatized. Whoever are interested about Marco new revision of loudspeaker might reads the link above. I wish Ebayn would not talk himself but juts quote what was told to him – it would be I am sure less idiocy. I do not have an opinion about the Marco’s new design but there is something the I already very much do not like. Wherever Srajan Ebayn posts, of published elsewhere was signed off by manufacturer.  So, Marco and whoever works with him have seen the picture of Hugues Borsarello - “the concert violinist and electrical designer par excellence” sating with his erected violin next to the speaker.  I understand the Srajan’s motivations: the massaging cheap kitsch and cheese visual superficiality is his destiny. However, when the French guys inspected the article and signed it off for posting then didn’t they see that Hugues’ depicting with a  violin and the speaker is too tasteless?

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Page 2 of 3 (58 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2 3 »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Problems with horns: upper bass ..  Must it be about loading?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     109  936929  03-25-2005
  »  New  Barn Conversion - James' Project..  The vintage vs. contemporary compression driver....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     28  288479  02-04-2007
  »  New  About bass horns by Johan Dreyer..  There are lowest bass horns and there are not lowest b...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  73042  02-11-2008
  »  New  La Grande Castine..  Good luck...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     57  424055  09-07-2009
  »  New  The most promising “best” commercial speaker..  Cessaro new Loudspeaker...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     191  1393884  12-06-2006
  »  New  European Triode Festival 2009 – good, bad and ugly...  Schröder, Walker and a weekend with Bernie...  Audio Discussions  Forum     10  22536  12-14-2009
  »  New  French Horns/drivers shootout (oops! S2 came last)..  My bad...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     7  52508  12-07-2010
  »  New  Where the Horns Light is shining from?..  Where the Horns Light is shining from?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     0  7696  12-09-2010
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