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07-17-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,730
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 21
Post ID: 11095
Reply to: 2002
The wrapping up to the Micro Seiki SX-8000 vs. SZ-1 debate
fiogf49gjkf0d

I usually do not do the Audiogon posting. There are too many idiots in there and they are under too much protection of the douchebags that run that site. Not to mention that I well remember WHY I was “banned” from Audiogon to begin with:

http://www.romythecat.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=2329

Still, I was attracted to subject that some Audiogon posted touched, so I decided to play alone. Eventually it turned into the typical Audiogon BS with simpletons craving for imperative recommendations. According to Audiogon business model it had to follow with an army of audio pimps and “advisers”. I am not a vulture and I will let whoever enjoy it to participate….

However, yesterday I posted an extended wrapping up to that Audiogon subject that Audiogon douchebags deleted. I have no idea why, probably if I send them Micro 5000 as an admission gift or show to them a tattoo on my ass with audio reselling license than they would not vandalize my post. Anyhow, as the respect to the time I invest to type it I reposted it here. This is my conclusion post that was deleted from the end of second page of the following thread:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1244737338

Right before I said: “I have written today a large conclusive post and posted it, withdrawing myself from this thread. For whatever reasons the post disappeared. I saved it and I will rep-post in at my site as I think it does a good conclusion for this whole thread.”

*************************************************************

To answering the Thuchan’s initial question about the differences between the SZ-1 and SX-8000 and to finish my enrolment in this thread…

The SZ-1 is not a Micro-Seiki flagship. It was flagman before Micro-Seiki stated to do 8000, so most of the SZ-1s were made before Micro begun to make 8000 model. The SZ-1, if you fins it will be old very old. Micro is gone in may 2001 and up to the spring 2001 they made (in one way or another) 8000/II, so with the best luck you can fish a TT that will be 10-15 year old and catch the TT from Micro production of 90s. The SZ-1 is very much an assurance that it is production from 70s or beginning of 80s. It might not be so bad but it is 30-40 years old TT with all following consequences.

Micro SZ-1 has air-suspended motor and the motor has a small gyroscope on it. It is probably good design-wise but I am a bit defensive to accept that it has a lot of actual impact to sound. I drove 8000 with variety of different motors, including adding to original 8000 motor a custom-made mushroom-shape axis-extender that created a very good flywheel/gyroscope effect on the motor. With all honesty, even if I could recognize some differences but they were not worthy attention. If you load your cartridge with let say with 75R then can you recognize the change to 72R? Well, we probably can (not blindly) but can you correlate it with change of VTA to .2 degree? If you say that you can then I would challenge you honesty and sincerity.

One interesting moment about the SZ-1 vs. 8000 debate might be around the urban legend that suggested that Micro use in SZ-1 a “straight” motor but later in 5000 and 8000 models they went for active start motors. The idea was to let the motors for a first 5 second of TT start to run at high voltage to give an initial momentum to a stationary platter. The notion is cool but after seeing quite a few 5000 and 8000 I did not find this behavior. Opening and 5000 and 8000 motors I also did not see anything that would be responsible for it. Also, with all honesty - what is the difference? If you TT would reach a cruse speed for 15 second or for 25 second? One might say that one approach is better for motor bearing then another but come on people, let have some perspective to it – you will die sooner than the damn TT motor will wear out! So, who cares!

I never had SZ-1 but I know 3 people who dose. I heard the SZ-1 but I would not make comments about it sound in contest to 8000. I would not accept the comment of the SZ-1 owners what they think about the SZ-1 sound vs. the 8000. The reason for it is because I know in my personal experience that it is immensely difficult to methodologically correct and intellectually honestly to compare the sound of two turntables if both of them are made more or less properly. Tolstoy use to say the bad marriages are all different but the good one all the same. There is a lot of truth in it in audio. I have an interesting experience about it last year. People who know me know that I am a big FM enthusiast and I had a killer tuner that under proper use delivered the best FM result possible.  Then I brought another “best tuner”, mane by completely different topology, culture, coals and period. That another best tuner, appropriately properly used for own topology delivered absolutely identical “best FM result possible”. So, all roads lead to Roma and I think that it is very much with TT. At the level of Micro 8000 or SZ-1 (conditionally 5000 of you know what you do) you are way beyond the point where your TT is the weakest element of your chain. If you wish to play more with analog improvement then play with other analog aspects and live the TT alone. The whole beauty of the large Micros that they are just a based platform that set a sets a default sound, certain pedal-point of analog performance and you can shape something above this base but you do not go below the pedal-point.

So, me the debate about SZ-1 vs. 8000 is mostly a debate about ergonomics and nothing else. As the result of this thread I did get the message about the accused benefits of extra flywheel for 8000. In my past I learned that it was not true. Still, if you insist I might give it one more try and if the circumstance will come I might try it evaluate the subject again. Still I would not actively peruse it as I did in past. In fact most likely, since I sold my flywheel unit,  I might not do it and will die in complete analog ignorance… Probably if someone will bring a good flywheel to me I might put it on use, otherwise it will be as is: with no bass, collapsed soundstage, with no inner-details and a lot of background noise… :-)

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-17-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,246
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 22
Post ID: 11104
Reply to: 11095
But, where's the Controversy...?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy, I hope you are not saying that this post was somehow taken as "Hot"?!?  I mean, this is just a straight-ahead, generic info/opinion post, right?

The only reason I could see to find fault with the post is if someone had some sort of "investment" in in a particular piece of hardware.

In which case, why even bother to continue the conversation?

BTW, my favorite TT threads are the Technics threads.  Those guys really rise up to defend their brand, like whacking a hornets' nest!

Best regards,
Paul S
07-26-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 235
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 23
Post ID: 11187
Reply to: 11104
That's Life
fiogf49gjkf0d
I guess, Romy wanted to give a good advice from his own experience. Good as it is there are a few points which are obvious:

Any good advice can be completely fruitless, because not everyone is interested in it:

Some are simply to stupid for everything

Some want to spend loads of money, it is in their nature

Some have the ability to find the worst solution, no matter what they do

S ome are not interested in a cheaper but better solution

Some ask for something but are not interested in an answer

Some listen but don't understand

S ome have absolutely no idea what they want, but they know, they will buy it...

Some write they love music but in real life it is masturbating in front of their "Altar"

etc. etc. etc.

Romy wrote all in the 1. Article here
Sometimes when I am asked about my opinion, of course, I would like to write it the way it is, but when 90% is overpriced nonsens, it gets boring after a while.
H i g h   E n d  Discussion is like a Situation with a mother and her baby (she will always love it, but she will ask, "What do you think?")
Well, I am honest but I have scruples
I would say "Nice baby, looks healthy" (even when it is ugly and fat, but after 2 h I am out of her house and will never come back)
A   R E A L MAN would - probably - say

"It is not the Babies fault that it is fat and ugly, but with some good food it can be done but an ugly duck will never change to a Swan" 

ok, I guess, that advice with the good food is helpful but I doubt that this Mother/Dad and THE REAL MAN will become close friends. 


That's Life


Kind Regards
Stitch
12-28-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,730
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 24
Post ID: 15313
Reply to: 2002
Turntables testing by "some people in Germany & Japan"
fiogf49gjkf0d
A site reader sent me email:

“ …some guys in Germany & Japan have put it [Micro RX5000] up against the Continuum and other ultra expensive high end tables with older vintage arms similar to your SME 3012 and shamed the newer tables.... “

I asked about the source or links of this information and I did not get any response.  I wonder if anybody know about those “some guys in Germany & Japan”? One of the reasons I am interesting is not because I would like to learns about the “Hamburg Test” for turntable but I would rather would like to see what kind people do those experiments and HOW (methodologically) they conduct the evaluations.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-12-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 235
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 25
Post ID: 15751
Reply to: 15313
Next chapter of foolishness
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, when someone is not able to understand what he hears....



http://tempuri.org/tempuri.html



Kind Regards
Stitch
03-12-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,730
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 26
Post ID: 15752
Reply to: 15751
Why foolishness?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Stitch, way do you think it was foolishness? I see it as a reasonable thread and the question EMT 927 vs. Micro Seiki 8000 is sensible to ask.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-12-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 484
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 27
Post ID: 15753
Reply to: 15752
Laws of Stich
fiogf49gjkf0d
But Stich firmly believes that EMT is a rubbish and he grounds his believes on some "laws of physics"
or something like that Wink The remark of the guy in the original thread
that EMT must be CORRECTLY setup is crucial here. From my experience it seems that people
who get EMT's "as is", i.e. not restored, tend to believe that their machines are in a perfect order
and do not need any service as it was all German build and booletproof . Nothing more
illsionary!!! A 40+ years deck needs a serious chekout and some service!!! Even changing the idler
is not so simple as it seems...and this is the cruicial part here. WIthout a good W&F meter
and some skills this is "shooting ina dark" or rather farting in the wind...





Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
05-31-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ArmAlex
Iran
Posts 101
Joined on 02-14-2009

Post #: 28
Post ID: 16371
Reply to: 2002
RE:foolishness of anlouge people
fiogf49gjkf0d
Sorry maybe it's not related very much to topic, but I couldn't resist not to send this $650,000 TT link:http://www.avdesignhaus.de/Analog-Laufwerk-Studie-Node_15714.html
11-08-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,730
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 29
Post ID: 18714
Reply to: 2002
Letting Micro Seiki RX-5000 to go.
fiogf49gjkf0d


I have one of my newest Micro Seiki RX-5000 sitting in basement for years and doing nothing and I decided to let it go. I was keeping it for year as some kind of back up TT, in case my 8000 got broken or as TT that I would be able to use at my second setup in Opera Room. Looking how I use my Opera Room, what kind musoc I have been listening there I finally concluded that it will be never a turntable in there. So, the 5000 will be going away….

It is interning to think about the price I have to ask. The market value of RX-5000 nowadays is about 10K. I look what the turntables cost out there. It looks like for the last 5-7 year the price of turntables (and loudspeaker) climbed up significantly and nowadays any chip plastic TT that use to cost under 1K people trade for 5-7K, similar to it you will hardly fine any 3-4 way loudspeaker for under 25K. So, I wonder if I position RX-5000 at the very top echelon of TT in trim of performance, significantly more interestingly in sound that many contemporary TT with price tag of 30K, then shall the price of RX-5000 reflect that?

What I do is not trying to pump up of RX-5000 cost but rather to raise a legitimate question about the RX-5000 value. 10K nowadays is a price of something like Technics SL-1000, will RX-5000 deliver better sound? The interesting moment – I do not know the answer.

We unfortunately price turntables not according to their Sound but according a public reputation and bits of roomers we collect from publications and from internet. It might be a valid way to do the thing but it is not objective evaluator.

I think the value of TT might be measured by Last Sound it produced. What does it mean the “Last Sound”. Pretend that you set up some kind of serious installation and got some kind of sound that you were looking. Now, you have the most advanced sound your playback is able to throw. Pretend that you identify that you would like to have something more. It might be anything: let say less mechanical character, deeper bass, more articulate phrasing, high dynamic range in lower volumes or more stable tone control in soft and loud passages. However, you playback is operating at very high of it’s mechanical capacity and there is just no way that to get more out of it. This is a good time to look into TT and tonearm if you are comfortable with your cartridge and phonostage, as TT and tonearm are primary parties that hold your mechanical limit.

I do not insist that TT like RX-5000 might open another sonic level of that mechanical capacity. It is very possible that some kind of new flimsy TT with electronic control of itself will do the job. We just do not have the more or less credible data in this respect and the people out there (including myself) might be wrong. Micro Seiki RX-5000 is just a vision of how no-nonsense TT might be build and in my view RX-5000 is a very good no-nonsense vintage TT. Still, I do not know how to market this TT as we do not have a fretwork to talk, think about the TT sound. I did receive a few emails asking about the sound of my RX-5000. I did told that my RX-5000 has some removable modification of platter (subroutine layer under hard mat) that in my view makes it better. However, how valid my view? I have no idea.

I kind of like this TT and I had a difficult time to decide to let it go. I have many audio items that in a way “unique” that I been keeping in storage and value them for the performance that they deliver. However, recently I change my view on the subject and I am no longer value my basemen as some kind grave yard of audio exotics. I am slowly letting some of my good drivers, tonearms and some other unused pieces of equipment to go as I do not need to keep them. Now is the turn of my RX-5000. I will be sad that I do not have it as I love this TT but as anything else in the life – one door is closing another is opening. I hope my RX-5000 will find a good home for somebody and I hope the new owner will appreciate it as much as I do.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-08-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 235
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 30
Post ID: 18715
Reply to: 18714
I like it versus done right
fiogf49gjkf0d
A nice discussion at Audiogon

(sooner or later it will be deleted) :-)
 
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1350008574&&&/Micro-Seiki-or-TW-AC-1



Kind Regards
Stitch
11-08-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,730
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 31
Post ID: 18716
Reply to: 18715
"Wonderful table but it does need tweaking and labor…"
fiogf49gjkf0d
I did look at the thread at A’done and I assure that they are idiots. The guy claims that Micro Seiki. Wonderful table but it does need tweaking and labor - almost constantly. I has been living with Micro for a while and I know no single tweak that would affect sound. In fact years back I made an experiment with RX1500 – I took it from rack and placed it on the pillows of my bed. I did not recognize any important change in sound.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-08-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,246
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 32
Post ID: 18717
Reply to: 18715
Purchase Decision vs. System Development
fiogf49gjkf0d

It's a pisser, all right, but a high-demands, OCD hi-fi nut might "realistically" spend years trying to get the most from a "serious" TT/arm/cartridge rig.  IMO, most people are probably better off with something "easy to use", if that is not an oxymoron when applied to even a semi-serious TT/arm/cartridge.  Having owned/used a Technics SP10, I would say that is is relatively easy to use, if not in the "serious" category in terms of ultimate potential.  Dunno about the other TTs just thrown into this discussion via the link to another, but the MS 5000 looks fairly "straight forward" to me.  For openers, I take a single, "nominal"  AC motor and belt or thread drive, along with a heavy, damped platter, as good things to start with.  However, I think the $13.5k might be the least of what's required to make this TT do its best.  Not that this fact would ever dawn on the average punter at the point of initiation...


Paul S

11-08-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 484
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 33
Post ID: 18718
Reply to: 18714
RX-5000
fiogf49gjkf0d
I have been looking at that table for some time now. The prices went up in the last
few years (IIRC Romy rised it by 50% from 9k to 13.5k)
...no wonder with the impotency of the current industry to produce anything
reasonable, save at a reasonable price.
Some time ago a presumably mint one (looked very good at pics)
went for $7k on Epay.
Hope to go to Japan on a trip to try to fish one.



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
11-08-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,730
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 34
Post ID: 18719
Reply to: 18718
Impotency of the current industry?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 N-set wrote:
...no wonder with the impotency of the current industry to produce anything reasonable….

I do not think that there is some kind of impotency of the current industry to produce anything reasonable. In fact I feel that today production shall be able to do much more competent TT then they were 30 years back. I do not think that they can’t produce but rather they have no way to market better production. The TT that are made today are not marketed by their sound but rather by their features. There is no framework for neither reviewers, nor dealers, nor reps or consumers to exchange information about TT’s sound. Therefore, the TT are made to be marketable with no sound as commodity. How would you design a car if you know that it never will be critically driven?

It is not that in past there was better designers or better designing techniques. Juts very similar to what happen with acoustic systems in the past people did not have so much wrong knowledge that has contaminated the stupid brains of today audio industry participants…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-08-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,246
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 35
Post ID: 18720
Reply to: 18719
Combining and Adapting Near Misses
fiogf49gjkf0d

It's starting to look like an unspoken rule that a contemporary "TT manufacturer" is expected to offer a "package" that includes an arm, and many of these folks even offer "their own" cartridges, as well.  It also looks like many of these "combinations" wind up taking away from an otherwise useful TT, arm or cartridge...

Speaking of "useful", I bought my SOTA new in...  1988, and it's never been down, apart from when I split a bearing, while moving the thing across town without engaging its "transit screws"; in other words, the resultant damage was totally my fault.  The only tweaking this TT ever needs is to keep it level as the house slowly tilts and slides to Hell.  I mention this because I think SOME used TTs are viable options, to save money; they seem to run realiably for a LONG time.  Basically, I'm not sure there's an advantage to new ones I have seen/heard, at least not in the systems I've seen/heard them in!

I would like to play with the newer Spiral Groove TT, and maybe the big Merrill; but not badly enough to pony up for one!  What else is a better risk than the old Micro?

Paul S

11-09-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 235
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 36
Post ID: 18721
Reply to: 18720
Analog Foolishness became normal
fiogf49gjkf0d
The Thread was written from Romy 2006, I don't know when I read it the first time but it was an eye opener for me. In a way, one of the very best Analysis ever written. 

6 years later (2012) every single sentence is still valid about morons, idiots, reviewers, customers or whatever. In a way THE proof that rock solid stupidity is normal life in modern Audiophilia. The Internet gives the chance to write opinions, facts, results, datas and it is possible to create a decision.When someone is able to guide a information from his first brain cell to the third.

The Seiki /Raven Thread shows this in a brutal way. It is known for years, that the Raven has problems with motor(s) and is highly colored in reproduction abilities. To write about that is purest Blasphemy to most of the existing owners who decided to buy something because it was on front page of TAS/Stereophile (I am not sure about that, but I think it was). My respect for the Designer, he created something he can live from. 

Interestingly, these flaws (or whatever) are completely ignored from owners, they even attack those who write about that and try to damage his "reputation" via private emails. Even in their stupidity they never get tired to recommend "their" Turntable in forums when a question pops up from someone who is interested to buy a Turntable (a good one).

Same with the Kinetic Systems NVS Turntable, a super Hype (from the friends of the Importer), unfortunately too stupid to think about proper Shipping for undamaged (Bearing) arrival..but when I remember right the introduction (it was deleted from Audiogon) from J. Tinn, the majority of the brightest brains of Stanford University were involved in that Design... and NASA of course...and maybe pending Patents also... :-) or Linn LP12, probably the best marketing ever made in High End...

This ignorance, or let's say, the dreaming of Adults being in a Toystore shouldn't be destroyed. They will hate everyone who says "Dude, wake up".For whatever reason they want to be respected as "experienced audiophiles" and their way to that "Pyramid of Competence" is automatically connected with price tags and spending much money (I can only Hype something no other one can afford...) *. They are able in real life to earn that money, but in Audiophile Terms they switch out their brain completely. But in every discussion you will find them at the top...

* of course, it is not always linked with spending much money, you will also find this kind of idiocy in lower financial levels, in DIY groups, their motto is "I don't have so much money than you but I can hear better...blubber"..and they tell the world how great their direct drive junk or rim drive nonsense is....

I read a lot in the last years but this thread here is THE Description of modern Audiophilia.
Thanks Romy.


Kind Regards
Stitch
11-09-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
RonyWeissman
Lyon, France
Posts 138
Joined on 05-29-2004

Post #: 37
Post ID: 18722
Reply to: 18721
Rx5000 experience
fiogf49gjkf0d
I've had rx5000 (with the ry5500 motor) for maybe 10-years now. Romy beat me to the comment that the person on audiogon that refers to these tables as tweeky and/or constantly in need of repair/missing parts has a clear agenda to sell something else! 
Do any of the other turntables mentioned in the article have adjustable feet for balance, ability to mount up to four arms with simple to use armboards ?I do not know what the table should sell for. I have seen the price go up and have considered selling, but what would i buy ? I have heard other vintage models (including lenco master as big as a freezer with 16- inch arm!). They all do certain things well but with a lot of personal character. My rx5000 lets me do what i can with arm/cartridge, step-up, cable/phono amp combination. The new tables i would never pay that price, period.
The table that interests me if i do sell my MS is platine verdier, as i live in france, for patriotic reasons!
Regards from France.

11-09-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,730
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 38
Post ID: 18723
Reply to: 18721
To talk or compare turntables....
fiogf49gjkf0d
Stitch, I am not too familiar with the sound of contemporary TT and I am not necessary would discard them juts because they are contemporary. I still have that fantasy about some kind of flimsy, paper-made TT that for whatever reason do sound very good. I do not think that it never be done.

The problem that I see with turntable is not the turntables themselves but people and systems. In many instances the superficiality and lightweightness of the people who use the TT, not to mention the people audio reference points, is major obstacle to get proper sound from a given TT. How many people would claim he they get the most from their turntable? I know my TT quite well and I consider myself not a Moron in audio but I would not claim that my TT performs in my installation at its max capacity. The playbacks are another matter. The best TT might be evaluated in term of their max performance only within a context of very ambition playback. For instance if you want to know what the most ultimate bass a given TT has then it might be done ONLY in context of playback the has very seriously done lower octaves. Is it possible that a TT with better bass would sound worse just because it over-perform the capacity of the given system and just highlights it’s weakness? Who could observe, evaluate and factor in all that complexity and make any more or less rational judgment about the definitive sound of our turntables? I spoke with a friend of mine who very confidently explained to me the bass difference between Micro 8000 and EMT 927. He was very much not a fool in my estimation but his playback did not work less than 50Hz. How shall I interpret his comments?

The point that I make is that subject of TT is VERY complicated and I do not think that there is any civilized framework how audio people could talk or compare turntables.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-09-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,730
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 39
Post ID: 18724
Reply to: 18721
Turntables Motors
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Stitch wrote:
… It is known for years, that the Raven has problems with motor(s) and is highly colored in reproduction abilities…

The subject of Turntables Motors is very tricky one and it turn out that Motors do affect sound very dramatically. I personally do not think that they do but I did not make any experiments with it as I always used Micros and never needed to play with motors.

However I knew a guy a few years back who decided to manufacture the best sounding TT in the world. It was not a stupid ambition of his and he took the project seriously, consulting and testing from a lot of different directions. Interesting that after a few months of experiments when I asked him where he was standing in his project he informed me that with no financial limits in his project he can’t not find any maker of a good sounding motors. After long search he was able to find a party of vintage motors, reportedly made by Germans for old studio film machines, which according to my guy were absolutely astonishing for TT. They were very large and very ugly but he insisted that they are unique in terms of sound.

In a few years the project of that guy did not go through and he had a party of the motors on his hands. I decided to get one of them from him, juts a back up if my Micro will go down.  He sent me the motor and the invoice for $800 – a ridiculously expansive price. I know that he did not make money on me and give to me the motor at it’s cost. This made me to pay a lot of respect to the subject of motors in TT as I concluded (looking at the straggling of my guy) that good TT motors are super rare thing.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-10-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,246
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 40
Post ID: 18725
Reply to: 18724
Potentially Great (So Sad...)
fiogf49gjkf0d

Sad to think of people mooning over TT porn, and reading all the "specs", imagining what this will [undoubtedly] do to finally send their systems into orbit.  Sure, a good TT has good parts; but how the parts are used is at least as important as the parts, themselves.  And by this I mean, how the parts are put together by the maker, AND how the product is used by the user.  Too bad the high-end parts do not come with viable instructions for the makers, and too bad the TTs do not come with REAL manuals that will REALLY tell the users how to use them.

Speakers are sad because there aren't any good ones available for purchase.  TTs are sad because nobody knows how to use even the best of them.

As a possibly interesting aside, I found the motor on my then-old (and now-quite-old) Rek-O-Kut "broadcast" TT to be just fine, as long as I used "pro" recording tape or a silk thread as a drive "belt".  Sure, this TT had other issues; but the motor was "good enough", which is good enough for me.  I say, when it comes to TTs, quit while you're ahead.  Sure, I enjoy intellectual excercises as much as the next person.  But I would never get rid of my present TT until I had another one up and running and I was totally convinced - for a long time - that it was signifcantly better as it applies to Music; and even then, it would have to be just as easy to use and reliable as my present TT, as well.  I have seen it all too often, people can throw a whole lot of money at this one and wind up essentially empty handed.

Paul S

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