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10-12-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 221
Post ID: 14712
Reply to: 14709
I need to educate myself about tube traps
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Serge wrote:
Looks like a good solution, this. To make the fabric-covered pipe more reflective you may spray-paint the fabric, I think.

I read last night the ACS papers, patent and learned how the tube traps work. To my surprise they are much more sophisticated devises that I initially thought. I however, very much disagree with the way ACS advocate to use them. You see, ACS presumes that a speaker in the room and bass coming from the speakers is some kind of constant the need to be corrected. This is absolutely wrong from my point of view. The whole idea of Macondo it to make acoustic system that fits a room, not vise-verse. All that I need from room treatment slightly reduce the amount of HF frying in the room. I do not need any lower frequency modifications. The tube traps do show it as phenomenal HF consumption tool but I absolutely do not want them to deal with my sub 1000Hz, in fact I very much do not like what they do in there. So, I need to educate myself  and to learn how to use tube traps in the way I need them.

Anyhow, this is what I am planning to do now. The 16” palf-tubes are in red. I will experiment with non-sealing the tubes and with applying spiral aluminum tape over the tubes ubderthe final fabric…  (in yellow)

PalfPipe_RoomTreatment_prototype2.jpg

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-12-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jp
Posts 39
Joined on 02-25-2006

Post #: 222
Post ID: 14717
Reply to: 14712
Absorption
fiogf49gjkf0d
In my room, the bass I get without any sort of room treatment is adequate.  If anything my room was just bright and considering I did not have any carpeting I had to do something about it. 

I find absorption to be detrimental and subtractive to sound.  It seems like absorption is more a bandaid than anything, but not to say that absorption is useless.  Ive used 1 - 4 inch thick foam and 3 inch thick fiberglass panels which diffused high frequencies as well in varying quantities and positions. 

I use mostly diffusers and cd wall cases.  I dont use much absorption except on the first reflection points on the ceiling and front wall in front of the tv.  Even in those spots I prefer to use diffusers, however it is a hassle to install and move them in front of the tv whenever Im using them.  I sit pretty close to the back wall- about 3 feet which is bad for sound. Using diffusers- skylines, qrds and even a combination of them- even this close to the back wall was highly effective.

You can try building custom QRDs according to the frequency you want to diffuse. Some of mine scattered from 570 up and diffused from 1140 hz up to around 6000hz, requiring a seating distance of about 3 feet.  Personally I think Qrds painted to match the color of the wall running horizontally along the top and running vertically along the column would be excellent and would not look so obvious.  Perhaps a "flutterfree" design.
10-13-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 223
Post ID: 14718
Reply to: 14712
The fiberglass tube dilemmas and my Shish-Kebab
fiogf49gjkf0d

I am playing with the tube traps and at this point I have a dual feeling about them. They are absolutely phenomenal HF absorbents, in fact much more powerful than any other tools I have heard.  They suck HF from the room with a force of a good commercial vacuum cleaner – very effective and intuitively powerful.

However, Sound that tube traps produce is a bit controversial in my view.  Tube traps are very powerful HF consumer and the need to be use VERY cautiously, it easy to over dry my room and it need some attention what and how to use the tube traps. Properly used I was able to get very nice HF balance in the room. Did it lead to better sound in my room? Hm, rather it did not. In fact for a first time during many years my room begun to sound like some kind of dealer demo room. Do you remember that generic suffocating, thin sound, with distill bass and hyper-pronounced HF on a background of monotone LF farting? That was always for me a signature of a room with tube traps and it is the direction into which the sound of my room changed. Thinking about tube traps more I conceded that they are no properly designed. That is kind of an audacious statement form a person who few days before did not even used tube traps and who has no assurance that he used them today properly. Still, I think that I am right, below is my further thinking on the subject.

Tube traps are mistakably designed as they tend to deal with a very erroneous assertion that it is possible to feel a listening room with some kind of confused and random bass and then to correct the things with tube traps. Why I say “confused and random bass”? Because this is what 99.9% people get from their standalone, off-the-self speaker with a woofer at the bottom inserted in a random room. Yes, the tube traps do deal with anomalies in the room but by doing it the very much obliterate very fragile and very delicate texture of bass. They kind if insert a very fine file of oil on surface of bass water, eating up all micro dymick of bass.  The bass become less problematic but also less impactful and less expressive. It cuts a listener skin like a dull knife – you feel that something is trying to slice you skin but you see no blood. This is very unpleasant feeling. I think the problem that tube traps has is that they are trying to do for bass and I think this is a mistake. The tube traps are super good HF consumers and this is where they need to be.

Remind you that tube traps use the fact the sound in a room create excessive pressure. The tube traps, being sealed, experience the pressure difference between the inside and outside the tube. So, it creates a “wind” from outside of the tube in order to close the low pressure zone inside of the tube. The “wind” blows across fiberglass that “eats” energy of the pressure wave. The larger tubes that lower LF will be eaten. So how to make the tube trap to eat HF but do not touch LF. Here is what I fill my des would work better – the sliced tube trap. What I think need to be done is to slice the tube trap on individual segments and make each segment to act differently. By the fact that segments are small they will not hurt LF. For HF they will act not only as consumer of HF but as smart consumer.

TubeTrapsShisKebab.JPG

Look at the picture above. We have a battery of small radial sections that do not go a go very low. The segments are all different, some of the sealed and “actively” eat HF, some of them opened, some of them HF reflective, some of them semi-reflective to different degree and the have some free air space between the segments. They are all in the same axis and covered with the same final cloth. I guess this type of tube traps Shish-Kebab will work very well s it will have proper randomizing effect. It would be very interesting to talk with the folks who the tube traps but have you seen any audio manufacture who would comfortably take a criticism about own products and without acting as a psycho?

I still will proceed with my half-tube idea for the ridge wall but I will be using smaller half-paper and experimenting with reflectivity. Most likes will not completely seal them. To my surprise even not sealed they are still very effective. I do feel that there is a special signature of fiberglass HF consumption. What foam eats HF then it does not make Sound “thin” and metallic. It looks like   fiberglass does. It might be just the way how and how much fiberglass is used. I will continue to make experiments as the forth with witch fiberglass eats HF is very commendable.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-13-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
unicon


Posts 72
Joined on 10-14-2009

Post #: 224
Post ID: 14719
Reply to: 14718
Cats life ?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

Tube traps are mistakably designed as they tend to deal with a very erroneous assertion that it is possible to feel a listening room with some kind of confused and random bass and then to correct the things with tube traps. Why I say “confused and random bass”? Because this is what 99.9% people get from their standalone, off-the-self speaker with a woofer at the bottom inserted in a random room. Yes, the tube traps do deal with anomalies in the room but by doing it the very much obliterate very fragile and very delicate texture of bass. They kind if insert a very fine file of oil on surface of bass water, eating up all micro dymick of bass.  The bass become less problematic but also less impactful and less expressive. It cuts a listener skin like a dull knife – you feel that something is trying to slice you skin but you see no blood. This is very unpleasant feeling. I think the problem that tube traps has is that they are trying to do for bass and I think this is a mistake. The tube traps are super good HF consumers and this is where they need to be.

Remind you that tube traps use the fact the sound in a room create excessive pressure. The tube traps, being sealed, experience the pressure difference between the inside and outside the tube. So, it creates a “wind” from outside of the tube in order to close the low pressure zone inside of the tube. The “wind” blows across fiberglass that “eats” energy of the pressure wave. The larger tubes that lower LF will be eaten. So how to make the tube trap to eat HF but do not touch LF. Here is what I fill my des would work better – the sliced tube trap. What I think need to be done is to slice the tube trap on individual segments and make each segment to act differently. By the fact that segments are small they will not hurt LF. For HF they will act not only as consumer of HF but as smart consumer.ontinue to make experiments as the forth with witch fiberglass eats HF is very commendable. Rgs, Romy the Cat



Roman ,
It is interesting to see you using your pipe in room.
You mentioned its wrong to use them as LF consumer.
You got it somehow wrong
1-sealed tube traps can absorb LF and yet again absorb all HF in the same time...
2- the problematic sound that you experienced like cutting your white skin with knife is all made by your wrongly used method .it is due to the unwanted vibration of fiber glass pipes .

sealed tube traps can be implemented the way to not absorb LF easy and just in case the pressure gets over high and they can yet to be remain fully customized to absorb and diffuse what you want them for .

I am not  entering the subject that many like the room to sound much bigger and like the room sound.

I honestly suggest to use the ASC made tube traps or just simply borrow some and experience with them.

PS: btw in your last pic of your room with pipe fiberglass they just look like asc tube traps .. or are they just them ?

Regardz
  unicon 

10-13-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 225
Post ID: 14721
Reply to: 14719
Call me Pussy.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 unicon wrote:
Roman,
It is interesting to see you using your pipe in room.
You mentioned its wrong to use them as LF consumer.
You got it somehow wrong
1-sealed tube traps can absorb LF and yet again absorb all HF in the same time...
2- the problematic sound that you experienced like cutting your white skin with knife is all made by your wrongly used method .it is due to the unwanted vibration of fiber glass pipes .

Sure, I have experimented with white skin, without them, with aluminum tape, with sealing the tube. Your point about vibration of fiber glass pipes is well take, I did not think about it and I still think if it mo9gh be important. However, what I do know certainly is that I do not what my room treatment to absorb or to do anything with my LF. My LF are fine and the do not need any external help.

 unicon wrote:
…sealed tube traps can be implemented the way to not absorb LF easy and just in case the pressure gets over high and they can yet to be remain fully customized to absorb and diffuse what you want them for .

I do not think that you are corrects. They can be turned to absorb or diffuse FM but they always form for LF. I do not think that there a way to moderate tube traps LF impact besides moving them around and changing the tube diameter.

 unicon wrote:
…I am not  entering the subject that many like the room to sound much bigger and like the room sound.

I honestly suggest to use the ASC made tube traps or just simply borrow some and experience with them.
I have no problems to borrow them. I have local dealer hat cares them. Do you feel that the ACS made tube will have some kind of different impact then my tubes do? Do not forget that the effect why I did not like the tube traps before in the system of others is very similar to what I am experiencing now with my own playback. Sure, I still might be doing something wrong but then it would be logically to propose that the identically wrong this was done by other people if we all have the same characteristics in sound after we begin to use a lot of fiberglass. I wonder if what LF wave changed speed then it might radiate some kind of odd harmonics….
 
 unicon wrote:
PS: btw in your last pic of your room with pipe fiberglass they just look like asc tube traps .. or are they just them ?
Nope they are mine own. The only ASC I have are small panes with fiberglass that I use on the ridge of cathedral ceiling.

The Cat

PS: Do not call me Roman, you will blow my cover. Call me Pussy.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-13-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
unicon


Posts 72
Joined on 10-14-2009

Post #: 226
Post ID: 14724
Reply to: 14721
More about traps
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
 unicon wrote:
…sealed tube traps can be implemented the way to not absorb LF easy and just in case the pressure gets over high and they can yet to be remain fully customized to absorb and diffuse what you want them for .

I do not think that you are corrects. They can be turned to absorb or diffuse FM but they always form for LF. I do not think that there a way to moderate tube traps LF impact besides moving them around and changing the tube diameter.

Pussy.



There is another parameter you missed and that is the core acoustic impedance Z
it can be calculated.

 unicon
10-13-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 227
Post ID: 14725
Reply to: 14724
Acoustic impedance?
fiogf49gjkf0d

Unicon, can you explain what do you mean and how and what for the acoustic impedance need to be used. I read the articles at tubetrap

http://www.tubetrap.com/

and I do underrated what is the acoustic impedance is.

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/z.html

What I do not underrated is way I need to be involved in all of it if I experience no problem with bass and no need for tube traps to intervene with my bass. In my view tube trap for bass is like stomach treating medication after one eats wrong food. No one question that those medications help but also if you do not eat bad food then there is no need for medications.

I do feel hat tube traps are very potent HF observer and here is what I would like to learn to use them effectively and creatively, with respect to what I would like to accomplish.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-13-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
unicon


Posts 72
Joined on 10-14-2009

Post #: 228
Post ID: 14726
Reply to: 14725
You maybe right
fiogf49gjkf0d
It is right that when you do not have bass problem then why to do any absorption for it ...
But how do you know you do not have any problem ?o0
 To make it simple and easy just forget about the impedance : it happens this way

you have distributed mass acoustic in your fiberglass  which can be effective somewhere >150 hz.
and in sealed design it can be effective below 150 hz down to 20hz in large tubes+full MF HF absorption or diffusive.
actually your insulation pipes already do absorb 80% mid FQ(150-500hz) and all hf FQ where they placed.
if you think you do not need to go below 150hz then just try to make your tube fiberglasses well structured from within and covered hardly from outside.
Acoustic Z of trap is useful in sealed design then just nvm it.

gl .
  unicon.


10-13-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 229
Post ID: 14727
Reply to: 14726
With my tubed vision this is how I feel
fiogf49gjkf0d
 unicon wrote:
It is right that when you do not have bass problem then why to do any absorption for it ...
But how do you know you do not have any problem ?

I was under impression that my criterion is my judgment if what I would like to hear has any resemblance to what I actually hear from my playback. So, far it did not let me down….
 unicon wrote:
if you think you do not need to go below 150hz then just try to make your tube fiberglasses well structured from within and covered hardly from outside.

I would like tube do not do anything under 500-1000Hz. This is why I feel that the tube, or half-tubes, need be small by volume and hardly sealed.

Rgs, the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-14-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 230
Post ID: 14728
Reply to: 13235
How to deal with glass in listening room?
fiogf49gjkf0d

I do not know how you feel if you have large glass surface in your listening rooms but in my room if I have any exposed balls then I instantly feel that something is terribly wrong with sound. It is kind of ironic as when I was buying this house I did appreciate the fact that wall behind the speakers will be transparent. However, when I begin to experiment with playback in this new room I concluded that exposed glass is terminal for the why how I hear Sound. I wonder: if is there any way to deal with the problem? I can lift up my blinds but then I have to open the French doors. It works great so far but it will not be an option during cold season. So, is any glass treatment that would make it still visually-transparent and let me to have fan seeing the Massachusetts snow but at the same time to be acoustic-wise not such aggressive?

I was looking around trying to see what people use and to my surprised I did not see people alerted to the glass problem. My glass is many feet behind the loudspeakers line and it does horrors. This guy from Sound Africa:

SouthAfricaHornWithGlass.jpg

… has his large glass window right the zone of the first reflection, on the side of the horn mouth. In my view it is absolutely atrocious configuration and it look like the guy spend no effort to deal with this glass. Ah, I forgot, the HF from Goto driver does not reflect… The image is taken from here:

http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?20880-Mid-range-driver-advice-needed

I was thinking about some kind of cage or a few inch deep screens that might be hanged before glass on winter to acoustically cure the glass reflections. Did anybody  see anybody work on this problem?

Rgs, the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-14-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
zanon
Posts 54
Joined on 11-14-2009

Post #: 231
Post ID: 14733
Reply to: 14728
Heavy Curtain
fiogf49gjkf0d
I put up heavy curtain over glass.

When I close the curtains, it help reduce problems glass causes. Of course, I then cannot see out. In general though, I do not like looking into sunlight when listening to music.
10-15-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
bernie_f
Posts 10
Joined on 12-16-2009

Post #: 232
Post ID: 14735
Reply to: 14733
Romy reinventing the wheel?
fiogf49gjkf0d

Hi Romy.

Why trying to reinvent the wheel? Everything about room treatment and room accoustics has been said and done. By a guy totally in the know and offering his advice and his tools on his website. Michael Green does NOT damp, diffuse, trap or whatever the "old school" approaches are. He TUNES rooms and audio-gear like instruments are TUNED to make real music come alive...

This should be worth your consideration.

http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/forum.htm

best wishes for your project
bernie
10-15-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 233
Post ID: 14736
Reply to: 14735
We all reinvent the wheel in away. + Michael Green
fiogf49gjkf0d

 bernie_f wrote:
Hi Romy.

Why trying to reinvent the wheel? Everything about room treatment and room accoustics has been said and done. By a guy totally in the know and offering his advice and his tools on his website. Michael Green does NOT damp, diffuse, trap or whatever the "old school" approaches are. He TUNES rooms and audio-gear like instruments are TUNED to make real music come alive...
This should be worth your consideration.

http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/forum.htm

best wishes for your project
bernie

The stigma attached to the “reinvent the wheel” is not truly accurate.  There is nothing wrong with “reinvent the wheel” – it is all about not how actions appeal to others but what motivates a person to do action in a first place. There are plenty people out there who do not “reinvent the wheel”, use experience of other and in most of case do not understand of what they do - they are Morons. Did you ever try to ask them “Why?” I did and I can testify that they have no sense of individual actions in audio and as only justification for their own action is the ever-present reply: because someone else did it. Alternatively the can give you a completely bogus justification that was pre-developed for them by audio marketing whores and the completely meaningless. Sure, they do not reinvent the wheel, but the also do not accomplish anything. I estimate that 90% of audio participants in that camp.

In my case I use empirical consequence and empirical demands of my actual Sonic results and if in some cases I do reinvent the wheel then… then I do not care. Why shall be bothered but the fact that reinvent the wheel if I act in according with my own understanding?  If I do reinvent a wheel then it will be my wheel and I will ride on my wheels my own carriage.  I do it not to sell wheels, not to declare ownership of the wheel concept but for no other reasons then make my own carriage to ride smoother. If so, the why do I care who reinvented the wheel?

Regarding Michael Green.  Bernie, can you explain in a few words what he is saying and what he is doing? I have read this character before and since you mention him I read a few his posts again. I truly do not get what he is doing and even what is trying to do. It looks like he does very rudimental and banal things and then and them with fancy names “tuning”, “optimization”, “harmonization” etc…  His posts that promised practical steps offer no tangible practicality, no methodology but rather very basic and very simplistic things. Perhaps I did not read what I need to read but from what I read I did not detect any “wheels” in what Michael Green saying.  Would question the notion of tuning audio-gear “until real music come alive” but I did not see that Michael Green saying anything practical or original on the subject. My Cat rolls from one side to another and by doing it she can fee that she creates a world economical crisis, bit I do not think she does. I do not day that Michael Green is a buffoon but in what I have seen/read I did not detect any  substance in his comments that would make me feel that he “tunes” anything or offer any “new school" approach. I might be mistaken, please show me that I am wrong.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-15-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JJ Triode
Posts 75
Joined on 09-12-2007

Post #: 234
Post ID: 14739
Reply to: 14736
Tunes, traps and tweaks
fiogf49gjkf0d
I used to follow Michael Green's previous forum at Tuneland, and have tried some of his products and techniques, though not his full "program" by a long shot. His stuff does affect sound, whether for better or worse depending on the user's efforts and tastes, like anything else.  I think he is correct that a lot of audio people use too much acoustic and mechanical damping, but I also think he goes way too far in deliberately creating microphonic resonances and then tuning them.  His site was getting way too cultlike for my taste (he does rigorously censor all critical posts, for one thing) so when he migrated his forum to a new platform I chose not to register or read it any more.Michael's approach to acoustics focuses mainly on "seams" (wall/wall and wall/ceiling junctions) and especially wall/wall/ceiling corners, rather than large reflective surfaces.  I have not used any of Michael's own products, but do use some similar products from another company (Eighth Nerve, now defunct) started by one of Michael's former associates.  These "Adapt" devices have a less "hi-fi" effect on sound than the ASC Tube Traps, which I also used to have a few of.  The Adapts seemed to bring clarity and ease to music, where the traps just brought "soundstage depth" and "tighter bass."If you (Romy) want to try any application of Michael's ideas, I suggest doing something with the narrow horizontal wedge-like spaces just above where you have your ASC Planks.  Maybe try thin fabric tubes filled with fiberglass or polyester in there, or something like that.I still use a few footers and other minor gadgets from MGA, but I use a lot more of that kind of thing from the Herbie's Hal-O guy.  I generally don't like the more compliant rubbery things from there, but the firmer footers (such as small ebony domes) seem to work best for me.Cheers,JJ
10-18-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 235
Post ID: 14753
Reply to: 13235
Eventually, the new reference sweat spot is found.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I spent today good 5 hours listening my new playback. For somebody who do not know me it would look idiotic to listen the playback with such a huge amount of problems and do not make any efforts to correct them. Defiantly the problems are huge: the midbass become too heavy and too generic (I guess the driver got broke-in the Fs have dropped too much), the all 14 channels is not balanced with new crossovers, no fine time alignment, huge ground loop on left channel, the room is too bright  (removed acoustic treatment), the many other pretty lethal problems. Still, with my clamed “listening intelligence” I knew very well what I was listening. Knowing all ingredients of my playback I know very well how and when they produce problems and I know how to interpret, deduce and to extrapolate the results I hear. I am not trying to suck my own dick in front of you but I truly know how to listen what I need to listen.

So, I was listening, thinking, sliding my chair across the carpet and was looking for the inspiration – I knew exactly what kind inspiration I was looking for. I was looking for a location, a very preside listening spot where my playback and my room would come together and would form a proper musical communication paradigm. Somebody from ancient world, I think it was Archimedes, asked for a center of support and promised in turn the Earth upside down. To me the reference sweat spot is such a center of everything in playback. What do you know – I have eventually found it. It is 11’ 7’ from MF diaphragm and it is an absolutely sensation location. It is not what might be recognized as nearfiled BUT it in a way better as it does the “distance accommodation trick” – very rarely seen effect and something that I truly craving.

NewRoom_listening_location.JPG

Anyhow, as today I for the very first time objectively witness that my new room has attributes that would allow me to accomplish Sound the will be beyond what my old room had. The perfect location of my listening chair had found, this is a huge move forward to me. Now I need lock everything on this location and bring the Macondo to the proper calibrated level with respect to this listening location.

Romy The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-19-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
zanon
Posts 54
Joined on 11-14-2009

Post #: 236
Post ID: 14756
Reply to: 14753
Fix speaker move chair?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy:

I know that because of your new mid bass horn, the speaker position is mostly fixed. So you move chair.

I am wondering -- to those of us who can move both chair and speaker, how do you go about getting system to play the room? Do you place speaker where you think it may be best and then move chair around? Or do you sit where you want and then move speaker?
10-19-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 237
Post ID: 14757
Reply to: 14756
Back and forth ceremony
fiogf49gjkf0d

 zanon wrote:
I know that because of your new mid bass horn, the speaker position is mostly fixed. So you move chair.

I am wondering -- to those of us who can move both chair and speaker, how do you go about getting system to play the room? Do you place speaker where you think it may be best and then move chair around? Or do you sit where you want and then move speaker?

Actually in my case the speakers position is not fixed. The mid bass horn is fine and this is the only one element that can’t be moved. The Macondo islands and the chair are perfectly can move.

There are however some constrains. For instance I would like to keep Macondo islands as far as possible from back wall. I would like to have the Macondo islands to be spread as wide as possible but without deformation of center image. I would like the chair to be equidistant between crossover altered midbass and the rest MF channels. There are many other constrains and wishes. Sure putting up room treatment and by other means the critical listening position might be adjusted and it will be adjusted but the main skeleton will be pretty much remain.

For those who both chair and speaker I would advise to find one stationary objects. For me in most of the case it is the back wall of the speaker when I know how far my speaker needs to be from there. This would give to you the base line for the speaker. Everything comes from there. You know your base line, you know your spread of the R/L channels, so you know more or less your listening distance. In many way it is back and forth ceremony….
The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-20-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Serge


Russia
Posts 51
Joined on 09-21-2009

Post #: 238
Post ID: 14758
Reply to: 14757
Try to have all the room treatments accessible & adjustable. Ears are most important instruments
fiogf49gjkf0d
Important thought I need to share with you all: try to make every piece of acoustical treatment accessible and adjustable for tuning by ear.
This is perfectly in-line with acoustics theory by Skudrzyk (Скучик) and the great Wallace Sabine who defined RT60 and designed the Boston Symphony Hall of 1900 always trusted his ears.
The shish-kebab idea is great in this regard, allthough I don't really like the foam/fiberglass things which suck. Suckers are always inferior to diffusers, sorry.
I will try to elaborate on the accessible tuning (it has nothing to do with tuneable devices from Mr. Greene). Example: if you hang a panel (wooden I insist!) hang it distanced from the bearing wall so you can tilt it and change the diffusion pattern.



http://hifiblog.livejournal.com/
10-21-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 239
Post ID: 14764
Reply to: 13235
Reduced frequency response range, sort of.
fiogf49gjkf0d

I think my new room and new midbass horn will give me an opportunity to play at the NEW LEVEL with a notion that I have been chasing for years. I am taking about perceptual shrinking of frequency response. I need to admit that most of the ugliest character of most of the loudspeakers out there is that they are not that full range acoustic system but each not then produce then try to spread it in a widest possible range. That artificial virtual extension of range, combined with dymick deficiency and tonal restrain is very unpleasant to my ears. Year back I call it Porcupine Sound but very few understood what it meant.

What I am trying to do is sort of reverse the situation and to make a truly wide range he plays to play mostly midrange. Partially I was able to accomplish in my old room and there are some reference about it in the following thread

http://www.romythecat.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=13585

.. but I think the new room will take it further as the longer reverberation time in my new room is such a power tool to keep lower MF longer! I would need to think about all of it when I will put the acoustic treatment on the wall and when I will set up the new Macondo balance.

What I listen live orchestra from the sites where orchestra (that is certainly is able for stupendous wide range) is more or less properly balanced, I mostly do not hear audio extremes but rather IMPLICATION OF EXTREMES.  Yes, I do understand that most of the recordings are unfortunately done with microphones located much closer than any sane listening distance for live listening. However, I to advocate the Morons who record music to use “dummy head” approach is too long and the people who do recording it too spoiled with wrong ideas about recordings. What however they do not have fortunately control is how sound done in my room. This anti-porcupinenees or the anti-Magico/Kharma Sound is perfectly achievable by balancing sound on playback level.  I think my new room will give to me more options to do it then my old room.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-22-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Serge


Russia
Posts 51
Joined on 09-21-2009

Post #: 240
Post ID: 14766
Reply to: 14764
Glass windows
fiogf49gjkf0d
For your french windows:


wood_vert09.jpg
VB-Wooden.jpg




http://hifiblog.livejournal.com/
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