| Search | Login/Register
   Home » Horn-Loaded Speakers» A Frankenstein Macondo - Injection channel - trying it as open baffle. (15 posts, 1 page)
  Print Thread | 1st Post |  
Page 1 of 1 (15 items) Select Pages: 
07-02-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Rewind
Posts 19
Joined on 04-14-2013

Post #: 1
Post ID: 19596
Reply to: 19596
A Frankenstein Macondo - Injection channel - trying it as open baffle.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi,
I am slowly building my own Macondo. I understand why the injection channel is there. It brings some kind of softness that the compression drivers lack.
I am using a 12" JBL midbass driver (~100dB sensitivity) in a 50L single driver Marshall cabinet, that I have turned into a U-form open baffle (with a roof). The difference between sealed and U-form open baffle above 150Hz was huge! Everything becomes more open and relaxed, no more muffled bass distortion, as can be heard from many cheap vented or sealed home theater subwoofers. I do have to use a lot of EQ to get bass, which I am not sure I can live with. It is probably better to get a dedicated subwoofer. The tricky part will be to fit a sealed sub to an open baffle midbass injection channel. The dispersion is very different, and a lot other things that I don't grasp yet are probably also different.

I did however confirm my worries that the 2" Radian driver I am using would be much faster. Overlapping both drivers sound wrong. I will try my best to time align them. We might be using them differently. I can still hear my injection channel a little at 2500-4000Hz.


Onto another open baffle dipole experiment in my Frankenstein Macondo:
I have also tried to exchange the 1" Beyma compression driver in a small AG Trio horn, for a Beyma TPL-150, with mixed results. The TPL-150 sounds very pleasant to the ears in chaotic music, but I prefer to use the 1" CD and just stop listening to music not scored for horns. It is a more rewarding experience. It should not be my job to fix badly recorded material with forgiving speakers like the AMT.

Switching between 1" CD and TPL-150 is like listening to live music, versus dead music. The TPL-150 is very analytical, and accurate, but I am not as involved in the music.

The Beyma TPL-150 is also in a smaller U-form open baffle dipole, because it sounded best like this. More open and relaxed. A little less sensitivity and probably less midrange, but I am okay with that. Taking off the back chamber did not change my bored impression of it.

I wish I could be this black and white always, but sometimes I do listen to popular music. Therefore I will try my best to build a bass AMT to better fit with the TPL-150, than the 2" horn. These horn speakers are more like instruments. You don't try to play angry electronica with a bass tuba. I guess I just need a second pair of speakers for those days when angry electronica is high on the playlist.

I am also building a GOTO horn for the 2" in wood. Because I can. Stick out tongue I just have to hear the difference between Avantgarde Trio type midrange horns and the GOTO. Progress is slow, but one half is done. Will report back. Smile

BTW, thanks for the idea with the RAAL supertweeter. I am using a Transmission Audio 50cm long/1" wide ribbon that plays heaven. I suspect that there is not that much difference between ribbon drivers. They are so similar, the design so simple. Right now I am trying out a transformeless setup using a pencil as a graphite resistor instead of ribbon driver transformer, inspired by Duelund resistors.


I know a lot of people are against open baffle in this forum, and I get why phase and reflections could be a problem. But I also have ears, and this just sound better than the sealed enclosure i lived with before. It is possible your Tannoy Red 10" won't cut it as an open baffle driver. It needs a lot of excursion and large area. My 12" JBLs are actually too small and have too low Xmax. Best drivers would be the 21" Beyma's. Some use them in dipole line array with high pass 200Hz.
07-02-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 2
Post ID: 19598
Reply to: 19596
I think you misuse my terminology
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Rewind wrote:
Hi, I am slowly building my own Macondo. I understand why the injection channel is there. It brings some kind of softness that the compression drivers lack.

OK, but it is not how I feel about the service of injection channel. I do not know what compression drivers you use but if they are good compression drivers then they shall not lack any softness. I might only presume that in case of your playback you use ether inferior compression drivers or amplification with too much higher harmonics if you have a feeling that your compression drivers are too hard. If you wish then let me know the content of your Macondo and I might pitch you some tests to confirm it.
 Rewind wrote:
I am using a 12" JBL midbass driver (~100dB sensitivity) in a 50L single driver Marshall cabinet, that I have turned into a U-form open baffle (with a roof). The difference between sealed and U-form open baffle above 150Hz was huge! Everything becomes more open and relaxed, no more muffled bass distortion, as can be heard from many cheap vented or sealed home theater subwoofers. I do have to use a lot of EQ to get bass, which I am not sure I can live with. It is probably better to get a dedicated subwoofer. The tricky part will be to fit a sealed sub to an open baffle midbass injection channel. The dispersion is very different, and a lot other things that I don't grasp yet are probably also different.

Well, we need to agree that there are no rules how acoustic injection might be used and I can judge only from what I tried. It sound to me that you do not use injection per se but rather a correction. You shall not be able to hear (in my mind) openness and relaxed feeling of open baffle and if you do then your injection is set to run way too high. In this case it acts more like dipole bass corrector. Dipoles by nature act as neutralizer for lower octave; it has to do with the way how dipole bass loads rooms. Anyhow, sine I do not know what you use for upper and midbass it is hard to say anything further.

 Rewind wrote:
I did however confirm my worries that the 2" Radian driver I am using would be much faster. Overlapping both drivers sound wrong. I will try my best to time align them. We might be using them differently. I can still hear my injection channel a little at 2500-4000Hz.
I am bit at lost in here. You say that you use 12" JBL midbass driver for injection and you feel that 2" Radian driver will be “faster”. They are so much not the same drivers and so much used for different peruses. I truly do not feel that they might be contestants for any type of analogues injection. Ether you or I are confused.
 Rewind wrote:
Onto another open baffle dipole experiment in my Frankenstein Macondo:I have also tried to exchange the 1" Beyma compression driver in a small AG Trio horn, for a Beyma TPL-150, with mixed results. The TPL-150 sounds very pleasant to the ears in chaotic music, but I prefer to use the 1" CD and just stop listening to music not scored for horns. It is a more rewarding experience. It should not be my job to fix badly recorded material with forgiving speakers like the AMT.  Switching between 1" CD and TPL-150 is like listening to live music, versus dead music. The TPL-150 is very analytical, and accurate, but I am not as involved in the music. The Beyma TPL-150 is also in a smaller U-form open baffle dipole, because it sounded best like this. More open and relaxed. A little less sensitivity and probably less midrange, but I am okay with that. Taking off the back chamber did not change my bored impression of it. I wish I could be this black and white always, but sometimes I do listen to popular music. Therefore I will try my best to build a bass AMT to better fit with the TPL-150, than the 2" horn. These horn speakers are more like instruments. You don't try to play angry electronica with a bass tuba. I guess I just need a second pair of speakers for those days when angry electronica is high on the playlist.
I have seen somewhere a lot of noise crated around TPL-150 by a fool from Brazil who goes under name Angeloitacare. I never used TPL-150 and I do not know it and frankly the only fact that this idiot promotes this driver say a LOT to me about sonic character of this driver. This Brazilin guy is superbly predictable. He runs from site to site, copy verbiage from forum to forum, expressing absolute foolishness that he himself does not understand. Him is juts mouth attached to no brain, no soil, no ears; with own cognitive function of scared chayote. He started his world tour right here at this forum but it was too revolting to tolerate him around. When a few years back he “discovered” TPL-150 I did read his comments about the driver. Unfortunately the fool can’t escape himself. Reading between the lines of his comments, knowing what level of primitivism he is targeting and understanding that fool spirit I got 100% reference about the performance of TPL-150. I had no interest in this driver a few years back and I have no interest in it now. 
 Rewind wrote:
I am also building a GOTO horn for the 2" in wood. Because I can. I just have to hear the difference between Avantgarde Trio type midrange horns and the GOTO. Progress is slow, but one half is done. Will report back.
Good for you. GOTO are very different from Avantgarde midrange. Avantgarde is heavy cone ceramic, very low compression with no back chamber driver damped in ferrofluid. GOTOs are VERY different.
 Rewind wrote:
It is possible your Tannoy Red 10" won't cut it as an open baffle driver. It needs a lot of excursion and large area. My 12" JBLs are actually too small and have too low Xmax. Best drivers would be the 21" Beyma's. Some use them in dipole line array with high pass 200Hz.
Rewind, vintage Tannoys are very different drivers then 12" JBLs or 21" Beyma. I do feel that even though you use the same word “injection” but we are taking about very different duties. To me it is absolutely irrelevant if Tannoy would be open baffle or sealed. I can assure that that it would make no difference at all.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-02-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Rewind
Posts 19
Joined on 04-14-2013

Post #: 3
Post ID: 19608
Reply to: 19598
Summary
fiogf49gjkf0d


Thanks for the detailed answers. I will explain my setup.

You are right about the dipole bass correction instead of the injection channel. Since I am waiting for both a subwoofer and the Fane Studio 8M and their horn, I am using the 12" as a bass channel, and when the 2" begin, I have a high shelf that is at the lower -14dB level, where I guess your Tannoy Red is. I still believe the JBL 12" can be used as a really good injection channel, in the way you meant to. It is better that I finish the project and then we can discuss measurements, but I want to check that I have got the principles right. And also, I wanted to share my positive experience in making the JBL 12" into a dipole (which may differ a lot from your principles).

As injection channel I am dead set on a pair of JBL E-120 reconed into a 2204H. But I would be grateful if you explained how you use the Injection channel. I read high pass filter 110dB at -14dB. This is the same as I was thinking. You use it as a fullrange, right? Then it will overlap with the compression drivers and they will sound very different, while playing the same notes. It will add some soft cone speaker sounds to the ultra detailed compression driver sounds. What am I missing? The JBL 2204H originally had these values: FS: 45Hz Range: 35Hz-4kHz. With the huge magnet of the E-120 has a sensitivity of about 100+dB. I will cross it lower than your Tannoy Red, since it is not a fullrange.

I think we are disagreeing on a few things, but one big thing - that compression driver can sometimes be harsh to listen to. Sometimes so harsh I want to replace them with something else. The Minidsp active crossover unit makes this too easy, so it seems I am always fiddling with the crossover.
I do see the injection channel as something to lift up softer parts of songs. And sometimes to replace the harsh compression driver. But this is only with material that was not scored for horns. You seem to listen to a lot of classical, and here the speaker really shines. Except for Pavarotti. They really don't like Pavarotti. But I wonder what you use the injection channel for?

Right now I am listening to a new 2" Radian 750-8, that should be the same as a Radian 760PB. Horn is made in tape and cardboard (embarrassing), but sounds good. It should as it has sort of the same shape as your largest Vitavox S2 horn. According to a guy who spoke to a high-ranking guy at Radian, this driver is one of their best and I can confirm that it sounds awesome.

For the finished Macondo tribute I will use four 1" throat, 3" diaphgram compression drivers called Yamaha JA6881B, instead of my current Radian 750-8 and your Vitavoxes. They are, according to a few, TAD 4001 killers, so I should be pleased. I almost bought a Vitavox S3, but they seem so overpriced for what you get. I have not heard the Yamaha's yet.

I read about your aversion against GOTO horns, and you might be right, but I need to listen for myself first. Same goes for the Beyma TPL-150. It is not as retarded as one would think. To some genres of music every compression driver that I have ever tested will sound unpleasantly coarse. You must agree this is true to some extent. I don't think that the Vitavox S2 has some magical quality that make it stand out from every other speaker, but I might be wrong.


I did not mean I will get Goto units. If I thought S3 were too expensive I will not get a Goto unit very soon. But their horns seem interesting and those I can make myself. I made sure to match the angles of the S150 horn the exit angle of the JA6881B throat.
If the Goto S150 horn turns out to be a Japanese hype, I will stick to the Avantgarde Trio horns that I am also making in wood. Not plywood or MDF, but proper pieces of oak and pine. Not sure if these will make the Midbass horn of the Avantgarde Trio superfluous. But I want to hear how a compression driver sound in these long Goto horns. It must sound pretty special!

I will use Fane Studio 8M 8ohm for the Avantgarde midbass horn. The 8ohm version sound much better than the 16ohm for some reason. Probably because the 16 ohm are NOS.
I thought about exchanging them with Beyma 6M100 6.5", that someone mentioned sounding better, but they are not nearly as detailed. But I will have to double-check that in the finished horn in a couple of months.

Summary:
Supertweeter: Home-made waveguide with Transmission Audio 50cm tall/1" wide true ribbon, transformerless with DIY Duelund resistors, and amplified with DIY Krell KSA-100 amplifier - Because it was used to power the Apogee Scintillas back in the day!
Upper Mid: 1" throat ceramic Avantgarde trio horn with JA6881B, amplifier with 45 valve amp (may be exchanged sometimes with the Beyma TPL-150 with some music genres).
Lower Mid: 1.325" throat wooden Goto horn with JA6881B + fake alnico magnet extension throat, amplifier with EL84 valve amp.
Midbass: 4" throat wooden Avantgarde horn with Fane Studio 8M 8 ohm with 6L6 valve amp ****HORN NOT IN USE YET****
"Injection channel": open baffle JBL 12" 2204H (XO: 100Hz-3kHz) with unknown amp
Subwoofer: Still unknown. 21" Beyma open baffle line array? With Hypex nCore amp? ****SUB NOT IN USE YET****
XO: Minidsp 4x10HD. Not worlds best DACS, but so handy in the beginning.

I have the Avantgarde Trio's old tweeter, the Beyma CP380/M, and the midrange speakers, called Community M200 8ohm (not the 27ohm voice coil M200A Avantgarde version). The Radian 750-8/760PB is miles ahead of the M200! The M200A voice coil must certainly be magical if it aims to beat the Radian. All the Beyma 1" are great and pretty cheap.

It is your choice if you want it open baffle or not, but I think you should try it first. The theory may say one thing but sound is physics and "We can't expect to know everything at once", like my physics professor used to say. Only reason why I am not trying the Vitavox S2 is the price.


I will have another very forgiving system for rock/metal/angry synth music: Still unknown subwoofers + DIY bass AMT + DIY AMT tweeter with TPL-150 membrane + true ribbon tweeter. For parties and movies, I guess.


Rewind

07-02-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 4
Post ID: 19613
Reply to: 19608
I do not like your use of that JBL channel.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Rewind, the explanation if my injection channel does is well described at this site. I do not own a copyright over injection channel nether term not concept. You can use your injection however you wish and call it whatever you want but what you do is very dissimilar to what I do with my injection channel. I do not share your view about harshness compression drivers. Perhaps your MF drivers are harsh, or your upper range is not time aligned, of you SET loaded too idle… or anything else.  If you do not like the “harsh” you get from your compression drivers then do not use compression drivers – it is simple like that. I do not like all those “new” compression drivers, all those Radians, Beymass and many others, they are for the Angeloitacare- like audio-trash who run like a wounded in ass idiot from one person to another person and each week discover a new driver that “sounds awesome”. Anyhow, I do not know what to say. I do not understand your “injection” and frankly I do not have any interest in it.
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-02-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Rewind
Posts 19
Joined on 04-14-2013

Post #: 5
Post ID: 19615
Reply to: 19613
Harshness
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yeah, they are my own experiments so I am the only one that need to care. They are based on your earlier work, so I felt like writing and tell you what I am doing with your ideas. The drivers we use may be superior or inferior. As long as mine are the best I could possibly afford I can relax. I do love horns, and I can probably find quite a few errors in my signal path. If they are there the horns will amplify them for me so I can hear them properly.

They are not time aligned at all yet. Will start measuring after everything is in place. I guess that could attribute to harshness. Or it is the nature of these mere toys I try to listen to. Smile

I did use quotation mark for "injection channel", because it really isn't one. But I would like to pretend it is because it sound pretty nice when I try to use it as one. It will look a lot like yours when I am closer to finishing. For one thing I might recone it to a proper fullrange JBL E-120. I listen to a lot of guitar and a full range guitar speaker in the background would sound really nice. I tried the Celestion V30 but Celestion has outsourced everything to China.

About the open baffle, it is a little rediculous to have a high powered low frequency speaker from JBL with a Fs at 35Hz and not get much output under 200Hz. Seemingly cleaner mids but what it was best at is gone in thin air.

I will check the forum again for more clues on the injection channel. It is the only thing that does not seem that straight forward to me.
That and how to tune midbass horn back chambers. If back chambers are necessary. I will check. Smile
07-03-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 19616
Reply to: 19615
You are missing the point.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Rewind wrote:
The drivers we use may be superior or inferior. As long as mine are the best I could possibly afford I can relax. I do love horns, and I can probably find quite a few errors in my signal path. If they are there the horns will amplify them for me so I can hear them properly.

Hm, you say that you like horns but you do admit hardness that you get. It is not the point of superior or inferior drivers, affording or relaxing. Any, even the best driver imaginable, might be made to sound “hard” in horn. This is the whole point – regardless what you use you have to have all together balanced sound, the proper sound and with no hardness. There is nothing in horn loading topology that makes sound topology “hard”, it is just bad application. Do your home work and set up juts your upperbass and MF to sound properly and only then begin to think about any other channels or methods.
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-03-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Rewind
Posts 19
Joined on 04-14-2013

Post #: 7
Post ID: 19617
Reply to: 19616
Goto S150 with what?
fiogf49gjkf0d

I kind of got stuck in selecting an upper midrange driver, above 2kHz. If a driver is going to screech in your ears it is going to be in these frequencies. I was never really satisfied with the range of 1" compression drivers I tried. That is what drove me to AMT. But that is not a final solution. They are probably very similar to ESS Heil, and you wrote how they made everything just sound like Heil, if I remember correct. I will contiue trying out new drivers and see if someone got it right. I have high hopes for the JA6881B. Will start working on them this weekend. I wonder what I could pair the Goto  S150 horn with if they turn out to sound good down to, say 350Hz. The Avantgarde Midbass horn would only get 150-350Hz. The horn I would need would probably not fit inside. I will end up with the same problem the Avantgarde Duo has. But, yeah, I will post later when I am finished.

07-03-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 8
Post ID: 19618
Reply to: 19617
You are all over the map.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Rewind wrote:
I kind of got stuck in selecting an upper midrange driver, above 2kHz. If a driver is going to screech in your ears it is going to be in these frequencies. I was never really satisfied with the range of 1" compression drivers I tried. That is what drove me to AMT. But that is not a final solution. They are probably very similar to ESS Heil, and you wrote how they made everything just sound like Heil, if I remember correct. I will contiue trying out new drivers and see if someone got it right. I have high hopes for the JA6881B. Will start working on them this weekend. I wonder what I could pair the Goto  S150 horn with if they turn out to sound good down to, say 350Hz. The Avantgarde Midbass horn would only get 150-350Hz. The horn I would need would probably not fit inside. I will end up with the same problem the Avantgarde Duo has. But, yeah, I will post later when I am finished.
 I am sorry but you are not selecting an upper midrange driver but instead you do I have no idea what. Instead to focusing on the problem on your hand you go all over the map with all kind of aimless activity. Reading too much audio sites, aren’t you?
 
What I am trying to say if that you need to employ this following rule:
 
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=432
 
stop, to look anywhere  and anything else and address the problem that you have in your hand. Any driver in any horn might made to sound “not harsh” and before experimenting with other drivers you need to learn how to make a driver in hand to sound properly. Generally by rolling the top of a driver you shall get rid of the harshness but it will address the symptoms only not the reasons. To find the reasons of the harshness is a bit more complex and it requires some discipline. You need to get rid of any crap and any fantasies you build around your installation and leave ONLY Midbass horn and MF horn. Time-align them and make then together to sound appropriately. The 4” Midbass horn with Studio 8Mwould NOT only get up to 350Hz but it will run all the way up 4-5K, in your case cut it somewhere around 600-1000Hz and you will be fine. Do not do anything else with system until you Midbass and MF produce proper sound. After you get this state then you might build you anything further.
 
Trust me, all your comments about Beyma, JA6881B, Radian Goto, JBL, injection, what you like, what you do not like and anything else are kind of irrelevant as  until you get a proper operational bone (Midbass + MF) of your installation you clearly have no understanding of what you are doing.  Building a playback is not about “doing” irrelevant things as it frequently practice by many audio DIYers but rather about proper methodological sequencing, thinking and feeling.

The Cat
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-03-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Rewind
Posts 19
Joined on 04-14-2013

Post #: 9
Post ID: 19619
Reply to: 19618
Completing the task
fiogf49gjkf0d


Yeah, I know it is just guesswork until the Fane S 8M and the JA6681B are in place in their respective horns. Your ideas around fixing the midbass and mids first, I have read before and they seem sensible.

We can stop here, and I will finish the project, and if it still sound harsh, I will write and complain to you. Smile Now I have a few horns to complete!

J

08-06-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Rewind
Posts 19
Joined on 04-14-2013

Post #: 10
Post ID: 19824
Reply to: 19618
Progress with midbass solutions
fiogf49gjkf0d
Last time we wrote you thought I should focus less on tweeters and more on midbass.

I am not done yet, but I have found a very nice midbass solution. Somewhat unorthodox, maybe.

I have come to love police sirens!

Without having A/B compared it to a pair of hornloaded Fane Studio 8M, just against a direct radiator JBL2204H 12" midbass cone driver in a 40L sealed cabinet, I find them very intriguing. The most striking difference while watching movies is - footsteps. I could not hear them before with the JBL 12" midbass. Now they are present. I can hear everything that everyone is doing, including the film crew. It is unreal.

With music, the midbass horn really shines at reproducing vocals. Less so for rock music.

The horn is a DIY Goto S-150 (1.75m deep x 0.8m diameter mouth), and the driver is the FS100W police siren, that use an alnico magnet, a phenolic membrane, with a 18 mm throat. They are so simple and cheap. I will cross them at 80 Hz to 600Hz, up to a Yamaha 6681B at 600-4KHz, then at 4-8kHz a Beyma TPL-150, and then at 8kHz-40kHz, a TA 50cm long true ribbon.

The TPL-150 will be exchangeable with a livelier, but less smooth sounding compression driver tweeter. Maybe another pair of Yamaha 6681B in a smaller tweeter horn.

I modded the FS100W last night, according to the recommendations from Dietmar at Analog-Forum.de. The diaphragm assembly was raised by 2-3 sheets of O-rings made of A4 office paper. The O-rings lowers Fs to the degree that I can get sound down to 80Hz. I use 6 dB of gain in a peak shape at 106Hz with a crossover point at 80Hz. I now feel more confident that it will work together with a Labhorn subwoofer that I am building. I hope I don't have to cross the sub higher than 100Hz.

08-23-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Rewind
Posts 19
Joined on 04-14-2013

Post #: 11
Post ID: 19965
Reply to: 19824
The Hobohorn
fiogf49gjkf0d
I built a prototype of a Avantgarde Trio in newspaper and tape, with the Beyma CP380/M, Community M200, and the Fane S 8M, and I also used a Behringer CX3400 and a 45 tube amp. CX3400 is soon replaced by digital active XO.

Paper may have made the midbasshorn a little flabby/muddy sounding. The Fane 8M did not sound as clear and fast as the compression driver in the Goto S-150 wooden horn. But that was not a fair comparison. The backchamber was wrong and the paper Avantgarde midbass horn was not as solid as it should.
One good thing came out of the newspaper experiment. I have always thought compression drivers had a harsh quality to them. But using paper horns above 500Hz made the sound very soft and smooth, but still hornloaded. Have a listen: https://vimeo.com/m/72501089

In a few weeks I will compare the JBL 2204H 12" direct radiator, and a wooden Avantgarde Trio midbass horn with a Fane 8M, and a wooden Goto S-150 200Hz horn with a compression driver, next to each other. I have heard all three of them separately , and my vote is on the Goto S-150 or the Fane. I can't be sure yet. I will also compare the Yamaha JA6681B and the Community M200 in the range ~500-3800Hz. They may not fit in the same horn, even with adapters, but I want to use them in as similar horns as possible.

08-23-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,145
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 12
Post ID: 19968
Reply to: 19965
Try Paper Mache?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Rewind, this is funny because it is not at all terrible.  I have thought for some time I would try paper mache "wings" on a WR driver, but I've never gotten around to it. Believe it or not, your little demonstration has rekindled my interest.

At some point the music has to get "serious"; meanwhile, the "real" quality of the sound of the "girl with bass" is not spoiled by the paper horns, taking into consideration, of course, the diminished LF.

Best regards,
Paul S
08-23-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Rewind
Posts 19
Joined on 04-14-2013

Post #: 13
Post ID: 19972
Reply to: 19968
Paper vs wood trials
fiogf49gjkf0d
Maybe the upper midrange horn became like a paper cone speaker. Best sound I ever made, and it looks like this.
It had the same ring to it as the magical SABA fullrange speakers - made of paper.

But below 500Hz, I must use solid wood. The Fanes are the most detailed midbass speakers I have heard without a horn, but with the paper horn the detail was gone. I hope it was not the horns fault, because then I am left only with a compression driver in a Goto S-150, or in a near future - a Satohorn. I felt an urge while listening, to bring out the sizzor and cut away the the 4" throat until it was more like 6". That would have sounded more open, but would probably have screwed up the hornloading. Then suddenly I got used to it, and I forgot the clear sound of the Goto horn, and just enjoyed hours of music.
08-23-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 14
Post ID: 19973
Reply to: 19972
A great illustration - the typical DIY Audio syndrom.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Rewind wrote:
The Fanes are the most detailed midbass speakers I have heard without a horn, but with the paper horn the detail was gone.
I am sorry you are naive. Fanes are not too detailed midbass speakers. Also, of Faned have lost whatever detailed you appreciate in them then it is an undeniable illustration that horn was very badly designed or that you do something very fundamentally wrong. I think instead running across web and keep posting about your attempts to render any renderable aimless project you need to take it a bit back and trying to discover to yourself what are you doing.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-24-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Rewind
Posts 19
Joined on 04-14-2013

Post #: 15
Post ID: 19978
Reply to: 19973
Defending the Hobohorn
fiogf49gjkf0d

I guess you have heard a more detailed speakers then. Your collection seem rather extensive. I never meant the Fane S 8N was overly detailed, just that it my paper horn the detail was gone, so I will not try that again.

I share the process because it is a fun project and I want to share it with others. I can stop posting here if you like, or at least until I have a finished project that I can proudly put my name on.

The Hobohorn was fun, because with an $5 investment in newspapers and tape I could get sound like I never heard before. I am sure some are interested in hearing about that.
Too bad about the midbass horn, I will need to fix a perfect wooden horn with an adjustible back chamber for the Fanes before I evaluate them. As of now, in a bad horn, they have not really impressed me yet.

This may seem pretty aimless because it is just a big experimentation with many different combinations and the results are just impressions rattling around in my head.
I would like to take your word about everything and skip these lengthy experiements, but that would not be very scientific of me. I am slowly developing a feel for what I want and when I do I will share that too.
Page 1 of 1 (15 items) Select Pages: 
Home Page  |  Last 24Hours  | Search  |  SiteMap  | Questions or Problems | Copyright Note
The content of all messages within the Forums Copyright © by authors of the posts