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  »  New  45Hz Bass Horn..  Can We Ever be Saved From Ourselves?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     23  310422  09-19-2006
  »  New  8" Goto Woofer for 60Hz Horn..  It's not a Goto 8in driver...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  85911  11-03-2008
  »  New  The Macondo’s Upper Bass Channel: what is next?..  Görlich again...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     30  284844  10-28-2007
  »  New  Jessie Dazzle Project..  Will this better to be auditable?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     172  1533752  08-03-2007
  »  New  Romy The Cat's new Listening Room..  Won't be the last time he makes that trip!...  Audio Discussions  Forum     478  2843842  03-28-2010
  »  New  Problems with horns: upper bass ..  Must it be about loading?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     109  1148674  03-25-2005
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  2097912  07-26-2009
  »  New  Macondo’s lowest channel...  What truly are you tryin to accomplish?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     150  1368128  09-15-2010
  »  New  Practical Guide for Back Chambers Tuning...  Back chamber’s cost-benefit....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  74330  10-21-2006
  »  New  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ..  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ...  Playback Listening  Forum     0  17687  10-08-2010
  »  New  Midbass impedance bumps -- why and what to do?..  You need to stop deceive yourself....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     18  190194  10-21-2010
  »  New  Mystery of bass horn calibration: Radiating Surface Dee..  Mystery of bass horn calibration: Radiating Surface Dee...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     0  16951  02-03-2011
  »  New  Impulse response, short notes and midbass horns...  A possible solution to better impulse?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     14  125512  06-13-2011
  »  New  My new “New” listening room, 2024..  That is not enough efforts in this direction....  Audio Discussions  Forum     31  8610  05-08-2024
09-19-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 301
Post ID: 14493
Reply to: 14488
Shaker interface
fiogf49gjkf0d
Very nice!

What about asking your carpenter to leave a nice neat 5mm joint, letting the edge of the horn remain independent from the sheetrock wall?

Alternatively, you could use white plastazote foam; closed-cell, easy to cut and easy to paint (very common in sporting equipment... Often used to make floatation devices):
http://store.friddles.com/browse.cfm/4,2014.html

And and and.... How do they sound?

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
09-19-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,076
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 302
Post ID: 14494
Reply to: 14493
The overlap between drywall and horns and no Sound.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes, to have an overlap between drywall and horns with drywall layer extended from horn for a few mm is my leading idea. Still I do not have a final solution yet and am conspiring options.
 
How does it sound? I have no idea. I understandably have a lot of temptations to try it but I made an agreement with myself that I do not remove the throat foam tampons until the construction work will be over. The ropes that you see inside of the horns are the leads to the second section plugs and they seal the front chamber. The plugs might be only removed and it will be VERY difficult to put them back. It will be a lot of drywall cutting, plaster sanding, walls and horns fine finishing done at the mouth of the horn and I do not want any dirt toward to throat. So, for now the second section tampon is in pace and it will be ceremonially removed after the room will be cleaned up.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-19-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 116
Joined on 03-15-2010

Post #: 303
Post ID: 14499
Reply to: 14491
Surround
fiogf49gjkf0d
You could isolate the horn from the plaster with 1/2 inch white foam window insulation and cover over it between horn and plaster wth white silicone or putty window sealant.
09-19-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 116
Joined on 03-15-2010

Post #: 304
Post ID: 14500
Reply to: 14499
Door trim
fiogf49gjkf0d
Another optrionwould be to plaster within 1/2 or 1/4 inch to horn and then surround horn openig with door framing wood not quie touchig the drywall. Would also add a little bit to the look of the horns.
09-19-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
RF at Ona
Posts 12
Joined on 05-29-2007

Post #: 305
Post ID: 14503
Reply to: 14494
Bravo Romy & carpenter … as for the joints
fiogf49gjkf0d

Congratulations on the construction and installation of your horns. May your pleasure at the results reward your effort and expense. I find their installed appearance even more geometrically striking than anticipated and I suspect now that some of the design choices I wondered about earlier can be attributed to a conscious or instinctive design eye.

As for the horn/drywall joints, basic ideas have been covered but here are some further thoughts:

1 - Settling:
In addition to vibration, remember the house framing is going to settle under the weight of the horns and the horns themselves will bend and warp a little as they respond to their own weight and the temperature and humidity in the attic – (they are not waterproofed on the exterior). This settling is going to expand the gaps over time and you may want to anticipate this.

The idea to keep the horn free of the wallboard/joint compound with a gap covered by some trim or thin fascia (face board) that is free to move with the horn but unattached to the wall probably can work even with serious settling.

2 – TRANSLUCENT silicone fill
For fairly thin gaps you can fill with translucent silicone AFTER painting. The color passes through the translucent material, which should be invisible for this use. You don’t paint over this so the poor paint adhering properties of the otherwise excellent silicone material is not a problem – it’s why they sell this stuff.

3 – Scoring or precracking
Create a deliberate crack and keep the horn and wall separate. You can create a thin straight and virtually unobtrusive gap by filling to the horn and scoring with a razor blade or utility knife and straightedge. If you are fussy, you can do this again after painting and slice through the paint with an even thinner slit. This should eliminate the tendency for unattractive irregular cracking where some cracking is inevitable. Deal with any widening gaps later.

4 – Accented foam stuffing
It you decide to use a fairly wide gap with some foam or other expandable material there is the option of giving this gap a distinctive appearance instead of trying to make it unobtrusive. You can loosely wind a colored ribbon or some interestingly textured material around the foam creating a contrasting border. The right person with good taste could make this work for others it’s an artsy-crafty flourish.

Cheers,
Robert

09-19-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,076
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 306
Post ID: 14504
Reply to: 14503
The drywall and horn conflict.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 RF at Ona wrote:
Congratulations on the construction and installation of your horns. May your pleasure at the results reward your effort and expense. I find their installed appearance even more geometrically striking than anticipated and I suspect now that some of the design choices I wondered about earlier can be attributed to a conscious or instinctive design eye.
  
Actually the horns look and feel absolutely the way how I envisioned them. There are decorative things that I do not like, where my carpenter override me and I let it to pass but they are minor and I might live with them, at least for now. There are some mistakes that I recognize now, purely my decisions but they still are something that I would characterize as minor.

 RF at Ona wrote:
In addition to vibration, remember the house framing is going to settle under the weight of the horns and the horns themselves will bend and warp a little as they respond to their own weight and the temperature and humidity in the attic – (they are not waterproofed on the exterior). This settling is going to expand the gaps over time and you may want to anticipate this.

Good point and I have brought it to my carpenter attention a few days back. I think it will be between him and drywall specialist that he desired to ring to the project.

About the rest, interpreting what was advised to me in the site, in the personal emails and talking with my local people we decided to indent the horn ¼-½ inch behind the drywall and let the drywall specialist to finish a perfect shape of mouth window make from drywall, terminated with plastic/meal corner trim. Then we will run some kind of door/window trim with some kind of elastic material between the very edge of the drywall and the horn.
The concept is clean and it will work but I do not like the idea that the drywall edge will be perpendicular. I would like the edge of the drywall if not continue the curve of the horn but at least to be at angle and to have slope. I need to sell to this idea my carpenter. I wonder if exist any drywall anglular terminators (corner trim)….

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-20-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,076
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 307
Post ID: 14506
Reply to: 14504
Cosmetology minor screw up.
fiogf49gjkf0d
That is a moment that I would like bring up. It was unknown to me before but now I recognize it as a “cosmetic bug” and if somebody would do the similar project then you might consider my experience.

Midbass_progress.JPG

My room has two colors – the color of walls and the color of cathedral ceiling. It is not white but warmer color - Behr 740C-1 Seaside Sand. The ceiling is painted with the same Seaside Sand coals but with 50% less density, so it feels “whiter”. So, when I decided to paint the horn with textured paint I use the same Seaside Sand color matching the horns with the color of the walls. However, I see that it was a mistake. It would be much better of the horn will be painted with the color of ceiling NOT the color of the walls. A horn feels as a part of ceiling not the part of the walls but they tend to feel darker. So, lighter color would work better for horns. I will see if my idea or light in the horns will work. I do not know if you paid attention but the section #2 has window. You migh see it between the legs of the lift in here:

Midbass_progress.JPG

This window is 3 layers of Plexiglas - there was a lot or efforts to make it optically transparent but sonically secured and structurally firm. I have light souses prepared and switchable electric power run to those windows. I hope that those lights will bright up the horn’s ass a bit. Let see how it goes.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-20-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,076
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 308
Post ID: 14512
Reply to: 14485
I do have a great access to back chambers on attic.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Midbass_progress_BackChamber_Attic.JPG




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-21-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 116
Joined on 03-15-2010

Post #: 309
Post ID: 14516
Reply to: 14512
Insulation
fiogf49gjkf0d
A thought. Why not super-insulate the top of the attic against the roof with 20-30 inches of fiberglass insulation or 12 inches of foam and leave the space around the mouths of the horns open to allow circulation of air around the horns. Would probably cut your energy bill and at the same time keep the drivers at room temperature. Othwerwise they'll be very cold in the winter and hot in the summer.
Bill 
09-21-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,076
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 310
Post ID: 14517
Reply to: 14516
I will see it myself during the winter…
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Bill wrote:
A thought. Why not super-insulate the top of the attic against the roof with 20-30 inches of fiberglass insulation or 12 inches of foam and leave the space around the mouths of the horns open to allow circulation of air around the horns. Would probably cut your energy bill and at the same time keep the drivers at room temperature. Othwerwise they'll be very cold in the winter and hot in the summer.

I did consider it in past – to put a wall between the section of the attic where is the horns to keep it more or less thermo-controlled. My carpenter came with a idea (that I like) to marks it not a "wall" but curtain from a think fabric. The insulation in the house is made with “cold attic”. The roof of the house (where is not cathedral roof) has no insulation and the insulation is located between the attic and ceiling. The listening room and kitchen that have cathedral roof have standard cathedral insulation. I did not live in this house on winter and I do not know how it will behave. I am doing next week the multi-zoning for heating and some other measures that shall take care about thermo-efficiency of the house. I think I will live my first winder with this house to see what need to be done and how the horn will impact anything thermal. I do not have an experience now to predict how it will behave. I did consult with a few people but I am not convinced with their judgment. Furthermore two weeks back, when the horns were installed and all my insulation was exposed I have the hose thermo-audited. I was not impressed as they pretty much did not say what I did not know. I think on winter I will be able to see myself how my insulation perfume and how horns behave from thermal perspective.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-21-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
miab
Canada
Posts 46
Joined on 02-07-2008

Post #: 311
Post ID: 14521
Reply to: 14517
Condensation is the problem
fiogf49gjkf0d
Actually the thermal efficiency or inefficiency is not the problem. It is the condensation that occurs when a cold plane meets a warm one. Warm air vapour WILL condense on the colder plane of the attic. what is in between is your wooden horn structure and drivers. You've insulated the back chambers very well but forward of the driver mounting it will be cold on the outside of horn. The paper cone and coil is what I would worry about. The horn should survive because of the plywood and drying factor. Expect weeping horns though. Your cathedral ceilling makes the problem worse because because of the warm air rising. Get on a ladder now that your hole is plugged and stick your head up there and you will feel the warmer temperature.

The best and proper solution is to do what I proposed before. Contain the horns within their own room within the attic and heat and cool the that room as you would any other room in the house. With a return air also. The cheap easy semi-solution is to stuff as much insulation around the horns as possible and paint the inside of the horns and triangle wall of the horns with a shellac based paint to act as a vapour barrier.  After going through all this trouble/expense and the project looking to be a beautiful and permanent fixture in your life it would be a shame to dismiss this as a "I think I will live my first winder with this house to see what need to be done and how the horn will impact anything thermal."
09-21-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,076
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 312
Post ID: 14522
Reply to: 14521
I'm kind of new to all of this….
fiogf49gjkf0d
Thanks, miab. Unfortunately I have no my own experience to spend a winter in a standalone house with own heating and I can’t estimate the value of your advice or the advices of others. My local people do give me some recommendations but I have no own practical assessments of them.  I am sure during the winter I will be expecting the thermal performance of my horns and to see if any moisture or drift will take place. For a time being I need to stick with what my carpenter does and I have no my own judgment at this point.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-22-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 116
Joined on 03-15-2010

Post #: 313
Post ID: 14526
Reply to: 14522
Insulation
fiogf49gjkf0d
You need to insulate around the horns. The attic around them will take on the outside temperature. The wood surface of the horns will be a poor insulator. Without insulation, it would be the equivalent of having a wall in the room without insulation, but even worse as the attic is hotter than the outside in the4 summer, and in the winter all the heat in the room rises to the ceiling and will escape through the horn wall. In the summer, water will condense on the outside of the horn and in thwe winter on the inside, thus rotting out the wood or allowing fungus to grow. Plus your heating and cooling bill will skyrocket. Thus either insulate and vapor barrier the attic side of the horns or completely insulate the outside walls and roof of the attic.

Bill
09-22-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,076
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 314
Post ID: 14527
Reply to: 14526
Monitoring moisture.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Bill, hold on. Are you saying that moisture can go across the plywood? The whole point of plywood is that is has layer of wood mixed with layers of glue and as I undusted the glue is not transparent for water. Baltic Birch plywood that I use all marked with MR grade (moisture-resistant) as it made with Carbamide glue – I was told that it is water- resistant. I am certainly under presumption that plywood is much better barriers for moisture then regular wood. I would not want to have river of moist running outside of the horn but I do not think that condensation will be able to go across the horn. Of cause I might be wrong…

What I would need to do it to monitor the state of sand that is use around the horns. The sand shall be dry in there now. If I see that sand got most then it will be a sign. Or perhaps even better - I can buy in Radio Shake for $20 a remote temperature miter with humidity sensor:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2049773#

Then I will be monitoring if the moisture be a problem…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-22-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 116
Joined on 03-15-2010

Post #: 315
Post ID: 14528
Reply to: 14527
Moisture
fiogf49gjkf0d
Not across the plywood but condense on it. Similar to a glass of ice water with water condensing on the outer surface. Any water on plywood surface for period of time will cause wood rot and grow black fungus which is very harmful to your lungs and immune system.
09-22-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,595
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 316
Post ID: 14529
Reply to: 14527
Earlier in This Thread
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy, Bill is spot on about water condensing into droplets on plywood; I have seen plenty of this on patio covers and under porches and subfloors, for instance.  It could happen when the warm, moisture-laden air (from inside the house) that is inside the horn meets the colder plywood.  If this can happen outdoors where the temperature differences are minimal, it can certainly happen indoors where the temperature differences are greater.  Of course any "exposed" metal would exacerbate the exchange.

But you already had the options laid out for you earlier in this thread.  Either you insulate the horn, or you insulate and "condition" the attic, at least the part the horn is in.  That's about it, I reckon.  Success without doing either of these things would be plain, dumb luck.

Best regards,
Paul S
09-22-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,076
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 317
Post ID: 14530
Reply to: 14529
I think I will be fine with insulation.
fiogf49gjkf0d
As I said, I do not know anything about insulation and I brought all of it to attention to my carpenter. Furthermore he read all that you guys said and he stated that you all have no idea what you are talking about, that was the actual quote.  He did stressed however that you guys are no incorrect generally but what you say is not applicable in my case as you do not he know how the things are done I my attic and it is very difficult to you to get anything from my pictures and from my explanations.  He assured that all necessary insulation actions will be done in the way how they need to be done and I shall calm down with my concerns.  Well, what can I say? He obviously knows what he does and probably I need to shut up and top see how it does. My carpenter has kind of style to deal with the issues in his own pace, what I did not see him doing was doing stupid things. so, I have no reasons do not let him to do what he intend to do – so far I was not screwed and I have no reasons to believe that he will fail with insulation strategy. It is not that I do not appreciate you guy trying to advise me the things that I do not know but I think my carpenter has better perspective upon the specifics of my given project and I would let him to run the show…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-22-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,595
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 318
Post ID: 14533
Reply to: 14530
Boots on the Ground
fiogf49gjkf0d
True enough, the guy who "knows what he is doing" and also has all the relevant, job-specific information is indeed best positioned to deal with your concerns in "his own way".  No one supposes your guy is stupid or lazy, by the way; but you keep raising the issues, yourself, and so you are the main source of the way these concerns have been "framed".   I do not wonder that your carpenter does not want to "discuss" every fucking detail with an "online committee" of self-styled "experts".  In my own case, of course, I really am an expert in these matters; which is to say I totally understand and appreciate your carpenter's "attitude" toward "helpful suggestions".  That I absolutely would have done some things differently than you've done them is NOT to say you have not "dealt with" things "sufficiently".  The proof, as ever, is in the pudding.

As I said before,

Mazel tov,
Paul S
09-22-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,076
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 319
Post ID: 14534
Reply to: 14485
The triangle wall is dressing up.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Midbass_progress_155.JPG




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-24-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,076
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 320
Post ID: 14553
Reply to: 14534
OK, now it left just finishing work.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Midbass_progress_156.JPG




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Page 16 of 23 (456 items) Select Pages:  « First ... « 14 15 16 17 18 » ... Last »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  45Hz Bass Horn..  Can We Ever be Saved From Ourselves?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     23  310422  09-19-2006
  »  New  8" Goto Woofer for 60Hz Horn..  It's not a Goto 8in driver...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  85911  11-03-2008
  »  New  The Macondo’s Upper Bass Channel: what is next?..  Görlich again...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     30  284844  10-28-2007
  »  New  Jessie Dazzle Project..  Will this better to be auditable?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     172  1533752  08-03-2007
  »  New  Romy The Cat's new Listening Room..  Won't be the last time he makes that trip!...  Audio Discussions  Forum     478  2843842  03-28-2010
  »  New  Problems with horns: upper bass ..  Must it be about loading?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     109  1148674  03-25-2005
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  2097912  07-26-2009
  »  New  Macondo’s lowest channel...  What truly are you tryin to accomplish?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     150  1368128  09-15-2010
  »  New  Practical Guide for Back Chambers Tuning...  Back chamber’s cost-benefit....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  74330  10-21-2006
  »  New  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ..  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ...  Playback Listening  Forum     0  17687  10-08-2010
  »  New  Midbass impedance bumps -- why and what to do?..  You need to stop deceive yourself....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     18  190194  10-21-2010
  »  New  Mystery of bass horn calibration: Radiating Surface Dee..  Mystery of bass horn calibration: Radiating Surface Dee...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     0  16951  02-03-2011
  »  New  Impulse response, short notes and midbass horns...  A possible solution to better impulse?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     14  125512  06-13-2011
  »  New  My new “New” listening room, 2024..  That is not enough efforts in this direction....  Audio Discussions  Forum     31  8610  05-08-2024
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