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01-02-2005 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 435
Reply to: 435
Do not pursue full-range without being ready.
Many people in audio pursue for so called full-range. However, the proper reproduction below 50-60Hz and above 12-14kH is very complicated. There are huge amount of audio products and methods that can furnish the result in those “complicated” frequencies but very-very few of them are not fundamentally faulty. Before you dive the world subscribing the fashionable propaganda about the “needs” of the extreme frequencies you should ask yourself why do you need them. If your answer will be that you “need more air” atop or “more slam at the bottom” then I assure you that you have a very little really needs for your frequency improvement as well as you have very little idea what you get out of audio. Learn to enjoy audio from 60Hz to 12kHz and only after you completely satisfied with result you might start to move wider.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-10-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
dady
Posts 4
Joined on 07-28-2005

Post #: 2
Post ID: 3961
Reply to: 435
Are sure of that?
Maybe you know many things deeply but this is not enought for say fullrange are that. You don't hear above 12KHz and the
musical espectra is well reproduced between 60 and 12000Hz, easly and clearly with horns well designed and lowthers, I listened my biamp whith monolith horn and dynaudio D76-d260-D76 with amazzing sound but now is more comfortable and clear, natural and real with few watts in mauhorn with DX4.
Nobody can say with than proud and determination a subjetive feel like sound and music.
03-10-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 3963
Reply to: 3961
Yes, I am very much sure.

Dady,

I am not quite sure what you are trying to say. I did not say that I don't hear above 12KHz and I did not say that there is no sound beyond 60Hz and 12KHz. What I did say that if a given playback/room/conditions has difficulties to reproduce below 60Hz and beyond 12KHz (most of the playbacks) then there is no relay need to pursuit to the dangers frequency zones. What I said was even further: there is a LOT of room to learn and improved how a playback might perform within 60Hz and 12KHz (and particularly in context of ANY two-ways installation). If 60Hz and 12KHz is done properly (very seldom accordance in hi-fi) then it is a good staring point to extend playback sound to more complicated regions up and down.

That was what I said and I said was pretty much expressed an axiom (as most that I post in me “Audio for Dummies” section). Considering your Monolith+D76 experience I would dentally suggest to you that there is much more room for you to discovery the undiscovered yet WITHIN my axiom then to argue about the axiom’s validity.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-10-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 498
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 4
Post ID: 3965
Reply to: 3963
When to try full range?

I find the sound of my horn loudspeakers very satisfying, and by the way I have the EdgarHorn Titans, which may make you chuckle if you are a horn snob, but I think they do a very good job, one of the best commercially available horn system out there in my opinion.  I am not educated enough to know how to build my own horns, but I like the sound of the Edgar horn quite a bit. 

Anyway, I found that when I turn on the subwoofer for the Titans, which as you know is a giant refrigerator sized downward pointing horn, the music just becomes more "real."  The best way I can describe this is that whenever I am listening to music on the stereo, there is a little bit of tension because it is not the same as being at a live concert.  With the lower frequencies added by the subwoofer, there is a relaxation of the music and the presentation goes away from the unnatural soundstage of being able to pinpoint the location of the violin player more to the way you see the violin player shifting in her seat when you are at a live concert.

In fact I think the soundstage effect is an example of what happens when your stereo is missing something.  As I modify and improve (?) my stereo, the soundstage is less dominant, and the feeling of listening to live music becomes more prominent.

Lately, Romy, you have been saying again how people should not try to expans certain aspects of their stereo until they have become comfortable with what they have, but my question is still how do you know when you are comfortable, and shouldn't we look at the deficiencies in the stereo and see if modifications can improve things? 

For me, I think it is okay to experiment, because I never know what will make a difference in my system, and I think you can never know really where the deficiencies are (although you can have strong suspicions!) so I try it and see.  Sometimes, it is a flop, but it always is an educational experience.

Adrian

03-11-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
dady
Posts 4
Joined on 07-28-2005

Post #: 5
Post ID: 3970
Reply to: 3963
Sorry Romy...
We gonna be owner of our silence and slaves of our words, maybe Igor debates himself between speak or not.
Receive my best regards and please forgive my english languaje, i am spanish speaker.
Esteban (dady) Bikic, Menorca, España
03-11-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 3973
Reply to: 3965
Sure, it is okay to experiment.
 drdna wrote:
I find the sound of my horn loudspeakers very satisfying, and by the way I have the EdgarHorn Titans, which may make you chuckle if you are a horn snob, but I think they do a very good job, one of the best commercially available horn system out there in my opinion.  I am not educated enough to know how to build my own horns, but I like the sound of the Edgar horn quite a bit. 

Anyway, I found that when I turn on the subwoofer for the Titans, which as you know is a giant refrigerator sized downward pointing horn, the music just becomes more "real."  The best way I can describe this is that whenever I am listening to music on the stereo, there is a little bit of tension because it is not the same as being at a live concert.  With the lower frequencies added by the subwoofer, there is a relaxation of the music and the presentation goes away from the unnatural soundstage of being able to pinpoint the location of the violin player more to the way you see the violin player shifting in her seat when you are at a live concert.

In fact I think the soundstage effect is an example of what happens when your stereo is missing something.  As I modify and improve (?) my stereo, the soundstage is less dominant, and the feeling of listening to live music becomes more prominent.

Lately, Romy, you have been saying again how people should not try to expans certain aspects of their stereo until they have become comfortable with what they have, but my question is still how do you know when you are comfortable, and shouldn't we look at the deficiencies in the stereo and see if modifications can improve things? 

For me, I think it is okay to experiment, because I never know what will make a difference in my system, and I think you can never know really where the deficiencies are (although you can have strong suspicions!) so I try it and see.  Sometimes, it is a flop, but it always is an educational experience.
Adrian,

I do not think that YOUR example with EdgarHorn might be illustrative as Titans are not self-contained loudspeakers that by design must be used with externals a complimentary LF sections. Not to mention that the Edgar’s refrigerator horns are far from worst and that the Titans (the “ordinals” with smaller upperbass driver and bend horn, not the newest “straight” version) were OK performers. I think your question “When to try full range?” is not exactly accurate. It is always a good idea to try full range. The point that I was making is that extend HF and LF response very frequently masks out a poor performance in “simple” 60Hz and 12KHz range. Also, the point was that BADLY implemented frequency extensions very frequently, if not always, make the enter playback to sound worst. Let me give me an example what I meant about your LF section. Unplug your Edgar’s refrigerator and forget about it for a while. Bring home any typical well-regarded by the Morons-reviewers subwoofers: for instance the top of the line Kharmas, mid-line REL or the similar. Listen your “naked” Titans, without any extra LF and get accustomed to it. Then compliment the sound with a subwoofer. Sure you will have more… whatever you descried but at the same time you will loose some “interesting” things in the sound of your Titans upper bass. It will not be necessary because your poor integrations practice but because the crap-sound from that Kharmas Ceramic will screw up everything and you will be able to do NOTHING. You will learn eventually that you prefer to stay with LF-underdeveloped sound of the originals Titans then to contaminate them with poison sound of the wrong LF solutions. So, it is not a surprise that most of hi-fi speakers do sound better when they high-passed with a large coil….


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-12-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Gregm
Greece
Posts 91
Joined on 02-16-2005

Post #: 7
Post ID: 3979
Reply to: 3973
I have a "theory" regarding F-R products
I admit I haven't statistically substantiated this to any great extent with commercial speakers (only with a pair of non-ribbon Genesis).

 Romy the Cat wrote:
 drdna wrote:

Lately, Romy, you have been saying again how people should not try to expans certain aspects of their stereo until they have become comfortable with what they have, but my question is still how do you know when you are comfortable, and shouldn't we look at the deficiencies in the stereo and see if modifications can improve things? 

For me, I think it is okay to experiment, because I never know what will make a difference in my system, and I think you can never know really where the deficiencies are (although you can have strong suspicions!) so I try it and see.  Sometimes, it is a flop, but it always is an educational experience.
Adrian,

(...) The point that I was making is that extend HF and LF response very frequently masks out a poor performance in “simple” 60Hz and 12KHz range. Also, the point was that BADLY implemented frequency extensions very frequently, if not always, make the enter playback to sound worst. So, it is not a surprise that most of hi-fi speakers do sound better when they high-passed with a large coil….


I think many of the best systems will play one of two frequency-ranges -- but not full-range -- well. And badly implemented extremes seem to me too, to multiply the spkrs deficiencies: in other words, they draw more attention to the bad things than the good things. So, the listener may be initially impressed with the spkrs product, but still not completely "gut-feel" satisfied.

There seem to be two distinct frequency areas where so-called full-range speakers may perform OK in either one OR the other:
*one is, the extremes, say up to ~100 and above ~5-6kHz
*the other is ~80- 10/12kHz.

Each frequency area, taken alone, may offer some sonic coherence. (The frequency extremes playing alone, amazingly, offer a sound that reminds me of MP3 or iPod.)
However these spkrs are manufactured to play "full range" of course. So, when you play music the two frequency areas are playing together in the same package and disaster usually occurs: the deficiencies of the spkr are multiplied rather than obscured. The spkr plays better either of these areas -- but not both together.

As I said, I haven't experimented with this (except for one pair), it's just an idea that comes from listening to very large "full-range" speakers. Also, I can't offer an explanation -- except that it may ver well be just my impressions (for example, what part of tis is attributable to the actual spkr design and which to the amplification???)

Finally, 60-12kHz that Romy refers to, seems to me an excellent and enviable range...
03-20-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 8
Post ID: 4039
Reply to: 3979
Healthy growth of your frequency range
Romy wrote :

"...extend HF and LF response very frequently masks out a poor performance in “simple” 60Hz and 12KHz range..."

Yes, in my esperience this is most dangerous because it can end up sounding sort of good.

In my on-going full range horn project, all but the extreme LF will be reproduced by horns... extreme LF duties will however be handled by a pair of large drivers in sealed enclosures (18", one in each of two sealed and stuffed concrete boxes about the size of a pair of American refrigerators)... Both of which are playing as I write this.

I don't yet have the 45Hz Bass horns done (and won't have for some time, as this is something of a civil engineering project), so in the mean time I just let their 15" drivers play in open space (60-290Hz 6dB/octave).

With the 18" LF drivers (currently low-passed at 60Hz, 6dB/octave) playing along with the rest of this unfinished system, it is obvious they can quite "convincingly" make up for a lot of deficiencies... in fact I would even go so far as to say that it all sounds damned good. I find their contribution to be as significant when playing classical as with other music. When I mute the output of the amps driving the 18" drivers, everything changes, including stuff that's happening way up the range.

While the sound may not on the level of what the horn-less 15s already suggest might be possible once correctly mated to a pair of big bass horns, I am never the less blown away by the effectiveness of the contribution made by this pair of LF enclosures.

Regarding masking and the correct development of a system:
As a means of verification, I find it sometimes useful to assume certain natural constants (laws?) and consider analogies to things more easily seen... Take for example the laying a tile floor, the rolling out of a pizza crust, or simply ironing a shirt... in none of these cases would you want to start from the perimeter and work inward.

So why did I build these LF enclosures so soon? Simple : A silly reason really... Apart from needing a break from the horns, I wanted to take advantage of a window of time when I had the house to myself, thus avoiding having to explain the stack of concrete blocks I moved into the dining room.

As wonderful as they may sound, these LF boxes are easily disconnected; I fully intend to develop the Central-Range (extending beyond MF) without any of their "help".

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
03-21-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 9
Post ID: 4042
Reply to: 4039
...observing the better and worst in upper bass...
It might not be directly related to the subject of this thread but I would like to pass this comment. Over the years of observing the better and worst in upper bass I come to an observation that the front loaded horns with dampened cones might not be necessary an ultimate solution for upper bass reproduction. Any cone damping: would be electrical, mechanical or air- damping unavoidably ads moisture to the upper bass tone. I mean the upper-bass strings sounds like upper-bass strings but the wood of the instruments sounds as it is not dry enough. This is a signature, from my point of view of the upperbass channels with dumped cones. Sure when we un-dumped the horn’s cones then we loose 10% of LF equalization. It is not good but there is one more “but”… our upper bass horns all are already compromised as we violate the rule that the tape rate should be a half of the crossover point… So, to make the upperbass horns “really properly” it should be really big and really not manageable… 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Page 1 of 1 (9 items) Select Pages: 
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Truth stretched out via Feastrex prism...  Goodbye Chris Witmer...  Audio Discussions  Forum     26  213448  01-21-2006
  »  New  Lowther Driver..  Schadenfreude II...  Audio Discussions  Forum     61  408469  11-15-2006
  »  New  The meaning of lowest octave...  Vibrational bass...  Playback Listening  Forum     1  16071  05-18-2008
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