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12-05-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,076
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 27309
Reply to: 27309
... and some Bruckner buzz
A friend sent me a link to an interesting video about Bruckner on analog. I do not know who the guy is; he is a Bruckner devotee, which is good. I'm afraid I must disagree with his choices, although I certainly enthusiastically support his appreciation of Carl Schuricht.
 
A few things, in my view there are no good-sounding Bruckner LPs, period. I feel his views about good sonics of many Bruckner LPs from 50 and 60 I do not share.  Another thing that bothers me about this presentation. Please stop that nonsense about Bruckner and Mahler as some kind of German pseudo-intellectual package. That is rubbish.  Their whole marriage started in the late 30s. I believe it was Bruno Walter who published an article about this position. I think at that time, it was fine as Bruno Walter had done a great job of promoting Bruckner and Mahler's music. But it, again, in my view, has nothing to do with reality, and to me, one of the most incredible things about Bruckner is that his musk is not Mahler's music. I am not a Mahler hater; I like Mahler, but to put Mahler in the same bracket with Bruckner in any way or form is a monumental fallacy.




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-09-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,595
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 2
Post ID: 27310
Reply to: 27309
Reasons for Poor LPs?
Romy, thanks for another nudge toward Bruckner. I was not at all aware of Schuricht before your post, and I do like what I heard of his 8th and 9th via headphones, off the computer, although I realize this is a just thumbnail version. You have said several times that there is no good Bruckner from LPs, and I remember you complained a while back that your Jubilee cartridge was acting up, and I wondered if this made Bruckner harder for you to get from LPs. If you feel, as I do, that Sound is very important for Bruckner appreciation, then you also think "the best" recorded performances must be replicable. I have to pay close attention to set up to get the performance from my old London 7th LPs, using my old, refurbished MC 3000 II cartridge.

Best regards,
Paul S
02-02-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,595
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 3
Post ID: 27326
Reply to: 27310
Bruckner 8 Performances, CDs
I think I have 3 versions of Bruckner 8, 2 performances on CD. 1 CD is Carl Schuricht/Stuttgart, 1954, and the other is Herbert von Karajan/Vienna, 1988. The Karajan CD sounds better through my system, and I also prefer it in terms of the performance, itself, at this point. As someone who has wanted to really hear Bruckner for some time I am now awash in B's 8th Symphony. What a magnificent piece of Music! I sort of snuck up on this symphony by listening to a poor mono LP set I've had for a long time. When I finally heard the Karajan/VPO/'88 CD I was totally hypnotized! If this Adagio doesn't lift you, it may be you have no soul! I am amazed that Bruckner adds to his sonorities here in a new way, building on orchestral "chords" by introducing lower frequencies and then bringing in higher pitched sections playing the harmonics of the LF, and then riffing on the resultant chromatics. And the progressions are marvelous! It basically puts the thinking part of my brain out of commission and puts me into a sort of State of Transfixion. It might take a while before I can start piecing this symphony together. I remember in early listening that I could not "get" the fourth movement. Now I get "closure" from the 4th movement, such as it is, since it leaves me floating amongst The Heavenly Host. Lubeck is on the way!

Paul S
02-04-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 354
Joined on 05-22-2009

Post #: 4
Post ID: 27327
Reply to: 27309
Definitions
Romy,
 When you say no good sounding Bruckner LPs do you mean no "great" sounding, or that all Bruckner LPs sonics are average or worse? It would help if you gave an example of late 19th C Romantic music on LP that you did consider good or better. Also do you think there any good sounding Bruckner CDs?
For myself, if I'm using "good" as above average but not a demonstration recording, I would say the Mehta Symphony 9, the Karajan Symphony 4 on the EMI german gold postage stamp label and the Bohm Symphony 3 are good recordings. I am only talking about the recording not the performance.
I think it is very difficult to make a demonstration recording of any large orchestra playing late Romantic works whether on LP or CD.
I do strongly agree with you that the pairing of Bruckner and Mahler is quite lazy. I think Mahler took one class from Bruckner. He never did much for him as conductor and his music has little relationship to Bruckner's except for some Schubertian tendencies in the interior movements. But music criticism (as opposed to scholarship) is almost always extremely lazy in everything.

02-18-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,595
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 5
Post ID: 27339
Reply to: 27326
Bruckner 8; Wand, NDR, Lubeck (1987)!
As for the Musical Part of this CD, it could hardly be more amazing. I understand that the performance was taped live by German Public TV, and this might well mean that there is a great DVD of this event. Harmonia Mundi was also involved, and I will try digging into this in the near future, to see if there are any leads to other good recordings of this performance. Here Wand commands a very large orchestra that is composed of crack musicians who are also athletes. They must have been exhausted after that performance, as Wand really drives them. Wand deftly tailors the sound and the Musical structure both to include the reverberation in the cathedral. He also uses the many sections of this orchestra to get special chromatics, texture, dynamics, consonance, harmony and dissonance. His timing is impeccable, very “organic”, and very much in sync with the space. Many music loving musicologists have raved at length about this performance, and I add my up-vote to theirs. I have said that this CD does not tax my system, but I should add that all components must be fully warmed up and at their best for me to get the best from this CD, because there is a lot of There there. Then the Music is huge, powerful, downright enveloping, and truly awe inspiring, with the touted “presence ambiance” from beginning to end, including the quietest to the loudest passages. This performance takes nearly 90 minutes, including the parts and the Whole of this great, mighty Symphony. This performance sets the bar pretty high for B8 aspirants.

Paul S
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