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02-03-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jeff1225
Posts 21
Joined on 01-10-2011

Post #: 1
Post ID: 21523
Reply to: 21523
New Horn Speaker Manufacturer to watch
fiogf49gjkf0d
Rommy,

Have you seen these speakers yet? Hornfabrik out of Germany. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DL6O8wa4OeI

They seem to be doing several things right with the larger installation.
02-04-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 2
Post ID: 21524
Reply to: 21523
I am not impressed with that Hornfabrik.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I am not impressed with that Hornfabrik and I do not see what they do “right”. The video is expectedly stupid, with the “journalist” do not know what they are asking and what they hear in response. 

For instance the small speaker they claim to have stable 8R impedance. They use TAD drivers and what impedance the 3 ways TAD in that type of loading shall have is well known. The only way to stabilize the true 8R impedance is to use resonators that do kill sound. So, shall I hear a statement about “true 8R impedance” as some kind of declaration of quality or the declaration of stupidity? Also, who cares about “true 8R impedance”? They use Atmosphere OTL amps; of course they care about impedance, but only they do. Next, what in the MF hour of the small speaker the front vertical facet does? A vertical facet around the horn’s mouth? That is monumental no-no, which has no need or reason to be there. 

On the larger system: why the MF horn is angled down? Did he read my Macondo Axioms before he made this horn? With all seriousness: the decisions like this are very indicative what is in the head of the system designer.  The mounting of a horn-tweeter on the flat surface is another thing. No, it is not “deadly solution” but highly undesirable. Another thing: with horns they do not need such a thick frame-column and I personally prefer a thin frame as it make the system flow in air. It is of course a taste but no matter what this chunky, non-elegant and unfinished frame that thy implement strikes me as contra-esthetical, which completely conformed by the music they play at demo. 

The only interesting that I find in this system is the decision to go for glass mouth of bass channel. This is for sure elegant idea. They look like use thick glass with rubber decouples. An interesting move, completely not tested by me and I do not know what to say. From one perspective glass rings like hell. From another perspective if it is think enough, properly mounted then it might be not important as it would vibrate homogeneously as one large surface, means at relatively low frequency. I have difficulty to predict the value of this decision.  I would like have sand to spread over the glass to see if it pick up any vibrations. 

Anyhow, I do not fell that what the Hornfabrik demonstrated is truly “interesting” with exception of glass mouth. There are a lot of new companies out there making horn with questionable design ideas. This one for instance: 
 
http://www.sonusaeterna.com/ngine#!/zeus 
 
For sure it all need to be heard to say anything certain. However, so far neither from musical not from design perspective I do not find them stimulating. If I travel in Germany then I would not make any efforts to slop by at Hornfabrik demo room. 
 
Rgs, Romy the Cat
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-04-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jeff1225
Posts 21
Joined on 01-10-2011

Post #: 3
Post ID: 21526
Reply to: 21524
Should have been much more specific
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes Rommy I agree with most of your comments above. What I found interesting in the larger installation was the time alignment and the bass implementation. 
I do disagree with your statement of not stopping by to see the Hornfabrik demo room, as I believe experiencing new things (glass horn mouth) is always worth my time.
02-04-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,540
Joined on 05-27-2004

Post #: 4
Post ID: 21527
Reply to: 21526
How to hear the glass horn mouth.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 jeff1225 wrote:
I believe experiencing new things (glass horn mouth) is always worth my time.
   
Well, Jeff, how methodologically you would be able to experience glass horn mouth if you hear it. My point is what and how you would like to listen in order to differentiate the glass horn mouth from would be horn mouth from another material?


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-04-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 193
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 5
Post ID: 21528
Reply to: 21526
Another glass bass horn wing
fiogf49gjkf0d
 jeff1225 wrote:
Yes Rommy I agree with most of your comments above. What I found interesting in the larger installation was the time alignment and the bass implementation. 
I do disagree with your statement of not stopping by to see the Hornfabrik demo room, as I believe experiencing new things (glass horn mouth) is always worth my time.

Just as a matter of interest, Basil Martion does a glass winged bass horn as well.

02-05-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 225
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 6
Post ID: 21531
Reply to: 21528
If you aren't even at first base, why talk about home runs?
fiogf49gjkf0d
The Martion speakers ignore time alignment among other things.. How good can the bass be when the overtones are not even aligned?


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
02-06-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 193
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 7
Post ID: 21532
Reply to: 21531
Not physically time aligned
fiogf49gjkf0d
 rowuk wrote:
The Martion speakers ignore time alignment among other things.. How good can the bass be when the overtones are not even aligned?


I believe that particular system uses DSP rather than physical time alignment.
02-08-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 225
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 8
Post ID: 21533
Reply to: 21532
DSP instead of physically aligned?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, Romy has often said it, digital can delay but not filter and analog can filter but not delay (in respect to sound quality). I most certainly agree.

So the speaker is not time aligned and they try to clean up the mess digitally. Perhaps with a more sensible design, he would not have to compensate at all. Especially for that money, why consider such a comprimised (in many more ways than time alignment) system. Of course such compensators prevent badly designed automobiles from rolling over when going to fast in the corner or prevent oversized luxury liners from sinking in bad weather - does that heighten the experience, or are we getting use to accepting comprimise instead of demanding good engineering? I have heard the Martion branded speakers in various installations and shows over the last 15 years. Pop music sounds OK..........

I have been experimenting with line stage buffers. It is hard enough to find one absolutely transparent when used strictly analog, I don't know of any DSP circuits that use anything of that quality. Want to bet that the Martion crossover will not pass a transparency test?


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
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